The Water Cover Up — Gerald Pollack, PhD

I mean, the human body is made of 50 or 60% water or more. And none of it is the water in this cup.
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It's something different. It it can't be as merely a background carrier of the more important molecules
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of life. It's got to be significant. It's got to be important. And the textbook version of it simply doesn't
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work. It's probably wrong. And we better start all over to figure out what might
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be right. Gerald Pollock, bioengineer, author, and one of the most provocative
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voices in water science. He studies a fourth phase of water, showing it's a fundamental [music] architecture of
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life, structured by light and sound, creating a water battery, powering the body's circulatory system, encoding
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memory, transmitting data, and maybe even touching our consciousness.
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If he's right, everybody else is wrong. That's pretty captivating of us. Uh, as
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you know, you know, I'm on this mission to create the healthiest home in the world. Oh, that's extraordinary.
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And this is why I'm here. We're not just talking science. We're designing the healthiest home in the world from the
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perspective of water. They put cancer patients near a window facing east.
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Morning sunlight probably has something to do with the wavelengths that are generated just after sunrise. But if you
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have very little easy water, um, cells divide rampantly. There's some big
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problem in the cardiovascular system. You got to get the red blood cells to pass through the capillaries and the
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capillaries are half the diameter of the red blood cell. So obviously there's something else that's going on. The
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infrared energy from outside which is building the easy water is supplying the
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energy uh for something circulation. For circulation. Yeah. And uh we can put electrodes in the easy water and we can
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get actual electrical current [music] that comes out. You can use this principle inside a home. If we measure
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[music] the properties of the water before and after it changes after he imparts his energy. So the water [music]
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is somehow connected to consciousness. It it's absolutely connected. But I mean there's lots of evidence for that.
What You Need To Know About This Podcast
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Before we dive in, I want to share what this podcast is all about. You see, I'm on this journey to design the healthiest home in the world. That's why I sit down
2:15
with brilliant minds across biology, medicine, design, and more. All with one goal in mind, a home tuned to human
2:23
biology. This is where I brainstorm, where we explore what it really means to create a home that heals. If that sounds
2:28
like something you care about, hit subscribe and let's see where this goes.
Interview Begins - We're Expecting "THE" Earthquake
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[music] You know, we're expecting an earthquake here. What? Uh, what do you are you talking
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about the earthquake that Yeah, you know about the earthquake, the one that's going to like cast this
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whole side of the uh the continent into the ocean or something or something like that.
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Is that is that real or is that I I I couldn't quite tell if it was if it was like
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where where did you read about it? Um, well, I actually hadn't read about it. A friend of mine who used to live
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out here had uh the last time we came about seven years ago. He he he just warned me. He was like he's like I
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wouldn't be traveling over there. He was he was so scared of it and he was like that whole you know we're like a we're
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due for you know that thing. He's like I moved and I was like uh I think if it's going to happen it probably won't be the
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day that I that [laughter] I get there. Well it might be. It might be. Um yeah,
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there's uh the so-called um Cascadia subduction zone um which runs north
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south and it's about 100 degrees or 100 miles or 80 miles off the coast and um
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uh it's created an earthquake every roughly 300 years. It's been 350 or 60 since the last one.
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Oh, so we're overdue by 50 or 60 years. Yeah, but we're talking about 9.1. Oh my goodness. I know 9.1 I'
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I don't know what So I'm not familiar with earthquakes. I'm I'm very familiar with hurricanes being from Florida. Um
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can you give me anam like a little bit of context when you say 9.1 on the on
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the RTER scale I'm assuming like what kind of like that's I imagine that's something that could level this house.
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Uh but I don't know like the scale. I don't I don't understand the context of Yeah. every um every unit from 8 to 9
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[snorts] would be a factor of 10 in strength. Oh wow. Yeah. So um a typical earthquake like
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seven or so can destroy a city. Oh my goodness. And there's 100 times bigger 100 times
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more power. 10 9.1 um Oh my goodness. And and where is that
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where is that loc is it is it located nearby here? Well just off the coast. I mean 90 miles
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off the coast. Yeah. I was reassured when I um when I read there was an
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article in the New Yorker magazine. That's what alerted everybody in the Seattle area. Everybody made plans um
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you know the earthquake preparations. Um a house like this there's not much you
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can do. It's an old house. It'll fall apart. But I was reassured because um the tsunami that that's expected uh it
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will be a 100 foot tsunami and it will inundate everything west of
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Interstate 5. Now you know Interstate 5, if you came from the airport, you went
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up Interstate 5. So if you live west of Interstate 5, you'll drown um probably.
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Yeah. If you're east of Interstate 5, which I am, and high up on a hill, which you are,
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you Yeah. But this house is built at the top of a hill and it'll slide down. So,
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probably that's what will happen. And and the shaking will probably last for a couple of minutes.
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Oh, wow. So, norm normally it's it's only a few seconds. Yeah. Depending on the magnitude.
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Usually usually when the magnitude is higher, um it the duration is longer.
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So, what what do you do in a in an event like that? You obviously would get out of the house, pray, but like would would probably
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going like out on the street. Uh if you can make it out to the street, that would be useful. Um
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uh crawling under a table like this is useful. Well, because uh it's likely that
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something will collapse from up above. Also, stay away from windows because the
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windows will crack, break, and fly. um you know because they're the windows are
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under compression. So you want to stay away from windows as much as possible.
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If you're in bed the the latest latest suggestion um is stay where you are and
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cover yourself with a pillow as much as you can and that that will act to
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protect you. You know it used to be that you're supposed to stand in the doorway because
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the doorways should be strong. Okay. Yep. But, uh, you know, it's it's not so
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clear. Another idea is if you're near a sofa, um, for example, just lie down
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right next to the sofa, right in front of the sofa, as close as you can as possible because something falls, it'll
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fall on the sofa. Um, and um, if it's a big board or something, it'll go from
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from the sofa down to the floor and miss you if you're really close to the sofa. I imagine
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getting inside of a like a cast iron tub would be probably safe without water. Yeah. I you know I'm I'm
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not sure. I really don't know. So, how does that affect for you
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personally? How does that affect like your psychology of or not psychology but like your your your mental state of of
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like living here knowing that there's a potential eminent threat to your to your
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life and and everyone's lives here. What is that like being in the most beautiful place in the country? so many threats,
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[laughter] you know. So, um you know, and you know, when you get to
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be a bit long in the tooth like me, um there are health threats, too. You know,
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it's it's inevitable um that uh as as you grow older, you become more
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susceptible to various um illnesses. And so, that's another threat. And I simply
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don't think about it. It's not it's not really worth thinking about it because
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it's not going to do you any good to think about it. So, you might as well just forget and live your life as you
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can live your life. And you know, everybody's life ends. Um and so if it
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ends 10 years earlier or or so, it's okay, you know. And uh who knows, there
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might be life after death, there might be past lives, there might be uh near-death experiences. I've met so many
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people um who have had these experiences.
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Um you know it's it well let me tell you
Water & Consciousness - The Telepathy Tapes Water Experiment
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have you have you seen um or listen I should say listened to the telepathy tapes? Have you ever heard of that?
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I haven't heard of the telepathy tapes. No. Yeah. Well I recommend you listen. Um someone told me the same. He said you
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should listen. And it's a series of uh I think 10 or 12 episodes and it has to do
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it has to do with kids who are autistic and when they're extremely autistic they
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can't speak. Um but they can think and they think um some of
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them are really gifted in their ability uh to think but they can't speak. So the
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only communication um that they have is telepathic. Now most people say
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telepathic impossible. This will convince you that it's not only possible but true. So So it turns out um that
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after I listened to three or four episodes and was absolutely convinced
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because by the way I think this is the number one podcast that exists. Okay. so
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extremely popular. So I get a phone call or an email, sorry. I get an email many
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um um weeks after maybe 10 weeks afterward and um this woman lives near
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the airport where you you you landed. And she said in [snorts] episode number
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10, there's a guy named Noah. He's now 25 years old and he communicates
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telepathically and he's also a gifted healer. So he can his energies um uh can
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heal. And she said to me uh she's his main communicator. Um she can talk but
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she's also telepathic. So she can interpret what he's saying
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telepathically. And she said he wants to meet you. Meet me? Why would he want to meet me? Uh so I asked. She said well
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he's interested and I'm interested too in water and he has his own ideas about
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easy water. Um, and I thought, well, this is really interesting. Uh, because
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it's not so often that you get to meet, you know, a kid who's not a kid anymore, but he's telepathic. So, we assembled um
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um Cara, the woman, local woman, and I assembled here on the sofa, and we
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picked him up on Zoom. He lives in Chicago. Um and uh um and he started
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talking about his idea about easy water and she's listening well um interpreting
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what he has to say telepathically and she's got an iPad and she starts writing
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drawing on the iPad listening to what he's saying quote unquote. So she draws
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a circle, she draws an oval, uh she draws a line, and you know, by the time
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10 minutes goes by, she's got a very complicated drawing. She tries to explain it to me, and I couldn't
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understand it. And I I don't know whether the lack of understanding uh was
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u due to uh the fact that I'm not smart enough to know what this guy is thinking
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about all kinds of energies. Or another possibility Another possibility is is
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that she u is that she's uneducated. She's gone through high school and
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that's all and she might be having difficulty interpreting what he's saying. And so the the communication to
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me doesn't quite make sense. Anyway, that's how it all started. And since
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we're about to start now, I I want to bring it to an end. But I'll tell you
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that we had him in the laboratory a couple of times um putting his energy or
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intention to water and we found that if we measure the properties of the water before and after it changes after he
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imparts his energy. So the water is somehow connected to consciousness.
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It's it's absolutely connected. But I mean there's lots of evidence for that. But I just wanted to tell you that this
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particular uh incident because it's interesting. There's a lot more to it. But um [clears throat] um I'm fascinated
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by the direction this conversation is going. So I just want to keep on this on this thread because it's it's going right back into water. And actually it
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ties into a question that I was going to ask you later, but I think I'll just ask now. Um yeah. Okay. Okay. So, this is fascinating and it's it's interesting
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that you bring that you bring this up like this whole this whole consciousness discussion and then and I you really
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took me for a loop here when you when you tied it back to tied it back to water. That's fascinating. So, yes, I've
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also been I think I think a lot of the world has been exploring consciousness in the last I think. So, yeah, there's more and more
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interest in consciousness and and more and more it's tied to water. Um water's
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all over the place and um you know water water is discovered on planets even even
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on stars and um it's got to be
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because of the ubiquity of of water. It it it can't be as as the textbooks uh
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describe merely a background carrier of the more important molecules of life.
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It's got to be significant. It's got to be important. and we have a lot of evidence that indeed it it is important.
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So this is a this is a kind of recent turn for us. Um it's not a 180 degree
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turn, not a complete turn, but we've gotten interested in consciousness and and how it imply how it applies to to
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water. It's fascinating. And you know, I I organize a conference each year,
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pretty much each year. It's now in its 17th year, I think. And it's we call it the water
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conference. The official name is the annual conference on the physics, chemistry and biology of water. And
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inevitably we uh I invite people who have something to say about water memory
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or information in water. And this is not a this is not a
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how should I say um mainstream topic. However, there's so much in information,
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so much evidence on this that it's really hard to reject this as as a possibility. So, um,
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so, so can I, so could I ask because you're about to head into something. I want to I want to I want to ask the
Water Memory - Water Can Store/transmit Information
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question. Um in your book uh the fourth phase of water, you write
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you write that water can absorb and contain energy and that [clears throat] some of this energy may in fact contain
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information. Therefore, water act in my in my interpretation of what you're
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saying is that water is some sort of data drive. some sort of some sort of memory like it has some sort of memory
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and and it and it makes me think of the memory of water and and and studies that have looked into like water and memory.
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Um so my question to you is is what what did you mean when you said that water
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can contain energy and energy can contain information? What what do you mean by that?
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I think your question um is is asking um um what kind of evidence are we talking
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about and what are the implications of that evidence? Um and um um so the the
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first let let me u let me expand. The first ma major uh study was done by a
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guy named Jacques Benvvenist and um Jacques was a friend um and um
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he's he was a guy with guts and he was a guy who really liked to pursue what he
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thought was interesting and he was a distinguished French scientist high level well respected with a laboratory
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of some 50 people uh approximately he was an immunologist and uh work that he
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he had done previously appeared in textbooks. Um I would say he
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was almost a legendary guy. Well, someone came to his laboratory and
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presented something to him that was really astonishing and he picked up on it and that was so he had an experiment
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where he would uh expose a particular solution or particular cells to
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antibodies. It was a very uh specific kind of experiment in which particular
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antibodies when exposed to these basoil cells the cells when exposed would
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secrete histamine. So someone comes to his laboratory and says [snorts and clears throat] um you know I I can take I can take
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those antibodies and dilute them and dilute them and dilute them to the point
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where there's really no antibodies left. There's just water. you you you know if you dilute enough and get the same
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result and he said ah impossible can't be but open-minded guy. So he said oh
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take a corner in the laboratory and demonstrate it to us. So he demonstrated to them and he got 50 people surrounding
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them looking to see if if the results would turn out positive and indeed they
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turned out positive. So Jacques understood the importance of these experiments and started pursuing them
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himself and the results were positive and he decided to send it in for to to
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publish into nature. So he was working in Paris and nature was across the English Channel in London and he sent
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the paper and sir John Maddox who's the editor of nature uh took um um took the
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result looked at it and said this is impossible it can't be how can water um
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store information because it this was a very specific kind of reaction and in
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order for the reaction to occur to occur in what seemed like pure water Because of all these dilutions, you dilute and
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dilute and dilute and you know uh seemingly obviously there's nothing left but water. So the water must have had
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memory of those antibodies that had been in there initially otherwise it wouldn't
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work. And Maddox said it was impossible. How could water store information? How
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could it have memory? How could it have memory of antibodies or substances that
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had been there earlier? It's impossible. rejected. I won't even send it out to
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review. Uh Jacques was um if you pardon the expression, pissed. Um and um um not a
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guy to be put down. Exactly. So he decided that what he was going to do is
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ask a bunch of colleagues in different countries to repeat his experiments using exactly the same protocol. And
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they got the same result. they decided to get together and submit the paper together as a group. It went to John
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Maddox, Sir John Maddox again and Maddox said I don't care how many people repeat
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it um it can't be true therefore not going to publish it. So meanwhile in
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Paris there are a lot of homeopaths who use this very technique of serial
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delusion in their homeopathic remedies and it seemed to them that Jacques
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Benjinist this well-known well recognized scientist was actually
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repeating um the same kind of thing that they do and justifying that this is
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really something real and the word got to London across the English Channel that there was a lot
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um consternation hubbhub about how nature sum summarily rejected their
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paper without even review because they said it simply can't be but they're doing it every day and so so they got
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the message and Jacques told me when I went to visit him to first when I first
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met him he said u I got a phone call on that phone right there and John Maddox
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it was John Maddox the editor of nature and he said I'll make a deal with you. What's the deal? The deal is I'll
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publish your result next week. Next week's nature uh with little comments
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saying that uh we're we're going to be visiting his laboratory observing what
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these French people are doing and reporting back to you after we find out.
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Um and um and then we'll re Oh, okay.
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So, so he asked Jacques whether Jacques would be in agreement with that and he said of course I mean Jacques was a
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genuine scientist and he thought everything was on the up and up. Um and
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so uh 3 weeks later the the first they published the paper one week after and
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then three four weeks after they appeared in Paris the committee it's
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supposed to be a committee of peers that what was that's what was promised and the committee consisted of three quote
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peers unquote the first peer was Sir John Maddox himself who was um not a
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biologist he was a physicist he never quite made to his PhD. He became a
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reporter for nature and worked his way up and eventually became the editor and
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chief of nature. That was the first. The second was a guy from the National
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Institutes of Health. Uh what's his name? Um I forget I forget his name, but
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he was he was in a group of people at NIH um in the center for scientific
23:11
integrity. In other words, these are people who are approached when there's a
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suspicion that someone is cheating. Uh, so if you're cheating at your university, for example, you're you're
23:23
painting black spots on white rabbits in the middle of the night and the guy in the next lab
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happened to be in there and notice that you came in at 4:00 a.m. with a paintbrush and you were painting these
23:35
little spots that you claimed appeared um out of some biological experiment,
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but you actually painted it. So he would he would report um to his provost of his
23:48
university and if the provost didn't take proper action uh he would report to this center for scientific integrity and
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the people would investigate and if they found that he was guilty um they would suspend all um all contributions to his
24:04
research. So that was the second guy and the third guy was the most interesting one. Um he's called the amazing Randy.
24:12
Randy the magician. Um um and the amazing Randy is a guy who um who could
24:21
figure out the tricks of other magicians. Um like there was a guy in uh
24:26
an Israeli guy who who said um that he can levitate and and and this guy Randy
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figured out the trick. So he's a debunker. A debunker, right? A debunker. So that was the committee. It wasn't exactly a
24:40
committee of peers. It was a um a committee to prove him wrong.
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Sorry. It sounded like it was committee to try to prove him wrong. To prove him wrong. Right. Exactly.
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So So they came and and the French did the experiment um um with this serial
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dilution. they got exactly the result they predicted and then they did it again and um the committee
25:06
coded various samples and everything turned out and then um the second guy I
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mentioned from NIH did the delilutions himself and it didn't turn out the way
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they they predicted and by the way when they wrote the paper they said this does not work 100% of the time however it
25:25
works uh overwhelmingly large fraction of the time. U but sometimes it fails
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and we don't know why it fails. Actually, they do know why it fails because if there's someone sitting in
25:37
the room who thinks um that this is a trick or something like that, then they
25:43
have evidence that it often fails. Tying back to your claim with the with the uh the boy who's who autistic
25:51
telepathic, right? And his consciousness influencing the water, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. But
25:56
anyway, it was a debacle u for Ben Venice because since it didn't work uh
26:03
when the visitors uh came um they huddled in their room and they decided
26:08
it's a trick and even the world's quote greatest magician couldn't figure out
26:14
the trick. So they reported in nature that oh the experiments were done in a
26:19
sloppy way etc etc. and his career, Ben Venice career went south. Um, he became
26:28
a scientific joke and you know, um, it came around, you're having trouble with
26:34
your memory, drink some of Ben Venice's water. It's got memory in it, you know. [laughter]
26:40
And, uh, I know I know people who u who knew him. Um,
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uh, and, uh, he was totally demoralized and, devastated. his career his career
26:52
plummeted down to a scientific joke from an esteemed scientist and he died early
26:59
um unfortunately. So that's um I mention this because he's you might say um he's
27:07
the first the first person who studied water memory or information water in a
27:13
major way. There were many others um and I let me just mention uh two because
27:19
there there there are others in between but I'm I'm I want to mention uh first
27:26
Misaro Emoto because he was a spiritualist but he had evidence as well
27:32
and then at the other end of the spectrum was a a Nobel laureate Luke
27:38
Monier who happened to be a friend of Jacques Benvist and took over when when
27:43
he passed. So, Emoto I think [snorts] a lot of people know about him because um he
27:50
published a book about images in water and a book became a very famous uh one.
27:57
So anyway, he was a spiritualist and and he had evidence that if he would direct
28:03
his energy to water and then freeze the water and then look at the ice crystals in the microscope,
28:12
um if if his energy that was directed to the water was positive energy, uh like I
28:19
love you or peace or something like this. when he looked at the crystals of the crystals of the of of the frozen
28:26
water, the crystals were beautiful by any standard. Uh if he said, "I hate you." Or um if he if he played um um
28:37
music um uh you know that was classical music or something. No, classical music was beautiful.
28:44
Mozart beautiful. I saw some crystals of Mozart and Bach. Uh but heavy metal was
28:50
was really really ugly. Yeah. So um anyway he became ultra famous um mainly
28:58
to spiritualist scientists didn't really take his work too seriously because he never did the kind of analysis that
29:06
scientists would anticipate. However, Dean Raiden, um, a distinguished
29:11
scientist who who in fact um, studies phenomena like this, he determined that
29:17
the results were actually statistically significant. So, so that's Emoto and I
29:24
know those people very well. Um, he died a decade ago and his son has taken over
29:30
hero Emoto. So, they're still working. and Luca Montineier finally um um
29:38
regarding water memory his his experiments were just so interesting and
29:44
you know the fact that he won a Nobel Prize he won a Nobel prize for identifying HIV but he did it and the
29:53
man the man was an intellectual so he wanted to do something else um so
30:00
he wanted to study the memory of water because he recognized that if this is true, it's really supremely important.
30:07
Uh and so he tackled it. So he came to our conference. He came every year for 10 years until his death. And the
30:16
experiment uh for which he's famous is an experiment in which he demonstrated
30:21
that um that water could hold information on the DNA sequence. So what
30:27
he would do is he would have a vial of um of DNA in an aquous buffer and a
30:34
sealed container so nothing could get out factory sealed. It was a short
30:40
sequence like a 100 base pairs of DNA with a cert obviously a certain sequence
30:47
um that's where the information is held in the sequence and then next to it was a container of water that was also
30:54
sealed. So the two are just sitting next to each other for 24 hours. Some ambient
31:00
energy was supplied energy um like 50 Hz or 60 Hz or something like that is in
31:06
Europe so it's 50 Hz. So the two are sitting next to each other um the DNA in
31:12
the water or aquous buffer and the pure water. Um and his hypothesis was that
31:19
the information and the sequence of the DNA was being transferred to the water.
31:24
So they sit for uh for a day. He he takes the DNA away. He's got the water.
31:31
He pours the water into the various chemicals required for the PCR uh
31:37
reaction uh you know the one that's used widely for COVID which amplifies the DNA
31:43
and new DNA comes out and the new DNA has the same sequence as the DNA that
31:48
was sitting next to the water. Isn't [laughter] that beautiful? Oh my goodness. You can imagine you you
31:55
can imagine the result of that. You can imagine um the the I mean the result you
32:01
can imagine the reaction to it [clears throat] you know and he told me that it was
32:07
presented there's a annual meeting of Nobel laureates that takes place in a
32:12
place called Lindow which is in Lake Constance in Germany. It's a kind of
32:18
peninsula or almost an island. Um, and every year there's a meeting and Luke
32:23
Montineier presented at that meeting. Um, and there was practically laughter
32:29
all the way around. This is so ridiculous as to border on impossible uh
32:35
or so impossible to border on ridiculous. Yeah. And I got reports from several
32:40
people including a guy at the University of Washington who is a Nobel laureate
32:45
and he didn't know that I knew um Luke Montineier and I he knew I was interested in water
32:51
and so we had a discussion about it. He said, "You know, I was at Lindow and I listened to this guy, Luke Montineier,
32:58
who won a Nobel for discovering HIV, and he presented something that was the most
33:05
preposterous thing I ever heard of. Complete nonsense. Absolute nonsense." And and I I fear that was that was the
33:14
reaction of practically everybody who was at that conference. But at our conference, um people are open-minded.
33:21
This is a conference on water that attracts people who are not interested
33:27
so much in mainstream science but in new science uh about water. So it's an
33:32
exciting conference and people are very friendly open you can meet and speak to anybody you like including Luke Montier
33:42
you know a lot of people come because Nobel Nobel laurate you can sit and have lunch with him u and chat with him and a
33:49
lot of people are are impressed by that. [snorts] Anyway um yeah I got to know Luke pretty
33:56
pretty well. I remember I remember once um we spent some time together in Abu
34:02
Dhabi um and bo both invited to give talks. So
34:08
I got to know Luke um pretty well before then and we at the same hotel for two
34:14
weeks um nicely supported by the people in the United Arab Emirates who are not
34:21
poor so they could put us at a nice hotel. So, we'd go to um we'd go to have
34:27
a meal at the restaurant. There were four or five, but there was one main one. And it was a a large noisy
34:34
restaurant with terrific food. And we'd sit at the same table many, many meals.
34:40
It was noisy. I couldn't hear him. He spoke very softly with a thick French
34:45
accent. And he was there with his girlfriend. And and finally uh [clears throat] in my inability to hear
34:53
what he had to say, his pearls of wisdom, I turn to her and I say, "Suzanne, please could you interpret for
35:01
me? I I I'm trying hard, but I can't understand what Luke is saying." She said, "Oh, I have to ask him to repeat a
35:08
hundred times a day." [laughter] So So it wasn't just you. It wasn't just me. Anyway, um so that's
35:17
that's part of the story of water, water memory or water information. And I would
35:23
say there's a huge abundance of information in studies way beyond what I've what I've just talked about. Well,
Sound Affecting Water
35:31
what it what it reminds me of just to just to you saying that uh the first
35:37
thing that came to mind was was there there's there's really two ways to to go here with the water having information.
35:44
You know, first is that it's a storage bank of information of some kind. Um but but the next question in my mind which
35:50
you just answered uh was is it just a storage bank or is it a transmitter of information as well or a receiver of
35:56
information? Right? could um because the idea is is is in theory you could you could somehow put information into the
36:04
energy that is bound within the the water and then maybe that stays there but then the experiment um where they
36:10
had the DNA sequence separated from the water that wouldn't have transmitted in any way right because it wasn't touching
36:16
um but what you were saying earlier with the dilution um in theory like in order
36:21
for that in order for that water to maintain its memory it would have had to
36:27
have transmitted it to new the the fresh water that was going in and then that water would then have uh propagated I
36:34
guess the the data in some capacity to the new water and then it just keeps you know recurring which which means that
36:40
water is not just a storage bank of information it's it is a transmitter
36:45
receiver it it somehow is communicating with other other water uh in some
36:51
capacity uh in in in that case and if that's if that's the case then that leads me to think about some of these Um
36:58
I I'm hesitant to say studies while stand you know sitting in front of a scientist like yourself but um but I've
37:04
seen uh I don't know if they were formal studies scientific studies that were done or not but um I've seen examples of
37:10
of plant life where you you they would they would grow plants and then you know similar to the water where once they
37:15
freeze it and the crystals uh if you played you know heavy metal music the crystals would be you know they would look very chaotic uh versus something
37:23
classical then the the crystal form of the or I should say the frozen form of the water would show something that
37:28
looks very structured like like crystal uh form. Um and I've seen a very similar
37:33
study where they would play classical music or they would sing, you know, to you know to plants and then those would
37:39
just flourish and grow and just be abundant with life and then others would be isolated uh other plants. These are
37:46
plants we're talking about uh would be isolated and exposed to uh heavy metal music or or or words of hatred, you
37:53
know, things like like that. Um and those would die. And then I saw they took it a step further and they're like,
37:58
"We're not going to do any music. We're not not going to do any sound. We're just going to we're just going to like
38:03
think, you know, these positive thoughts and negative thoughts, right, toward one and the other." And similar similar
38:10
react um uh conditions occurred. And now I'm thinking, well, it almost seems like
38:16
potentially the the source of that is maybe the water that those plants are
38:23
living from, right? that that they're they're deriving their life from, right, is it's the water. And and and and so
38:28
then that makes me think um how much more, you know, for us if if we, you
38:35
know, if we were to just I'm extrapolating here, but you can kind of see the thread of of thought like like
38:40
why is this important that we're talking about this, right? I'm trying to bring it back um to to us and our health. It's
38:47
like, wow, you know, is it possible that I mean, the human body is made of 50 or
38:52
60% water, right? And or more or more and and none of it is the water
39:00
in this cup. It's something different, right? Uh I mean, I think that's the premise of of the book that that you
39:06
wrote uh that you've written. It's not gas. It's not ice. It's not necessarily liquid water. It's something else. Um
39:12
and and uh and we'll get into what that is in a moment here. But but if that
39:18
thing somehow carries memory, somehow transmits, receives information, somehow is tied to consciousness.
39:26
Well, that is that is I think that's that's potentially one of the most foundational un like discoveries or or
39:34
pieces of of information that that would underpin an entire paradigm shift of how we understand ourselves and our health.
39:41
Would would you would you uh Well, not only would I agree, but I think that what you say is foundational
39:49
for science. Um, we don't have all of what you say uh I agree with and I've
39:55
seen many studies that show uh for example sound and human health sound and
40:02
health of plants uh all living things seem to be responsive to sound and many
40:08
people are studying it right now people reporting at our conference um each year
40:14
um uh [sighs and gasps] um but ultimately sound so I I just want to
40:19
make one one uh comment here. So, one thing that that comes to mind is that sound is just
40:26
um everything is on the spectrum, right? So, sound is effectively just one slice
40:32
of this pie of energy form, right? Just like light is a higher frequency slice of the same energy form, a different
40:39
sliver. At least that's my understanding of it. Well, the energy may be different, but but yes, another kind of energy,
40:46
right? Different wavelength. Yeah. And if that's the case, it seems to me like the
40:52
way that consciousness is affecting things like water, similarly to how sound or light might affect water, it
41:00
almost seems to me like consciousness is potentially on that energy spectrum to some
41:06
capacity. Uh abs absolutely absolutely. There are
41:12
so many studies that demonstrate what what what you're talking about and um I
Computer Memory From Water
41:19
just want to make one one remark about that. You know, if you think of um of
41:24
this water here, [snorts] the the idea that this water can store information
41:32
seems a little has seemed a little far out uh because the molecules are bouncing around a fierce number of times
41:40
each second and they're randomly oriented and that's not the kind of substrate that you would think of and in
41:47
which information could be stored. But easy water uh is completely different because easy water that we discovered um
41:56
has a stable shape and it's like a crystal and crystals can store
42:01
information. Um if you think about for example if you think about a computer
42:08
memory think about about the thumb drive that you stick into the port of your
42:14
computer. It's a it's a plane. Uh the plane one plane contains transistors and
42:21
the transistors are in a regular two-dimensional array. And each transistor oops each each transistor
42:30
um has two states. Uh we call them zero or one or on or off. And [snorts] it's
42:36
the distribution of these zeros and ones um um in two dimensions that creates the
42:43
memory. Um now the question is not this kind of water but easy water does that
42:49
have a similar structure and it absolutely does because the easy
42:55
structure which I'll talk about as soon as we we get to it um is a series of
43:01
sheets and the sheets are stacked upon one another and each sheet has has a uh
43:08
hexagonal motif to it. the hydrogens's and the oxygens of water are displayed
43:14
in the regular uh two-dimensional pattern which then repeats in uh on
43:20
successive sheets. It turns out so it's got regularity just like the thumb drive
43:27
but it also has um oxygens that have not two states but five different states.
43:34
The oxygen molecule this is standard chemistry can have five different states. um we call the minus2 state a
43:42
veilance but it can have minus2 minus1 0 + one +2. So easy water in in summary
43:50
has all the characteristics that a a computer memory has and so we may not
43:57
think of this kind of water as being capable of having memory. However, um if
44:05
the energy that comes in uh changes this water to easy water, and we have evidence that that occurs, the easy
44:12
water that's in this liquid uh can have store information that way. And if it
44:18
could store information, there ought to be a way of extracting the information, although that's not yet revealed. The
44:25
bottom line um is is that you can um if if what I've said is correct and turns
44:32
out to be practical, you can build a computer memory not out of silicon
44:38
transistors uh but out of easy water. And that computer will be the size of a
44:45
pin head because we're talking about uh about elements that are at the atomic
44:52
level, not at the transistor level. So you can reduce the size. You think that
44:57
the computer memory right now is pretty small, but you [snorts] can reduce it by a factor of easily a million times.
Memory Might Not Be Local to the Brain
45:03
Oh my goodness. Well, that makes me think um of studies on memory in the human body and how there it seems to me
45:12
like like the direction of our understanding on memory is that it's not entirely local to the brain. uh this
45:19
this thought that um this thought that memory maybe is not local to the brain
45:24
and now talking about memory and water. I'm almost wondering if potentially um
45:29
the structured water or the easy water um in our bodies potentially is serving
45:34
some form of propagating memory. I've been thinking the same thing um as as
45:42
you've been thinking um you know if if the memory lies in the water rather than
45:48
in the neuron or the neural network uh the capacity um is so much larger and if
45:56
you think about um think about piano playing you know um you play a trill
46:04
and [clears throat] it's it's impossible you you play a trill really rapidly It's
46:09
impossible for the information to come from your brain to your fingers that quickly. There must be something local.
46:15
[snorts] And when you think of something local, you think of water and um you think of this kind of information. It
46:22
harks back to the work of Rert Sheldrake. Uh I'm not sure if Yeah,
46:27
Rupert Sheldrake. If there's one dean of alternative science, it's Rupert Sheldre. U he's a he's a prominent guy.
46:35
Uh he's British. He he studied Cambridge University. Um and um we're friends.
46:43
He's had dinner on on this table right here and I've had dinner at his home.
46:49
Um, [snorts] and uh, I find him intimidating because he speaks he speaks
46:55
with a Cambridge University accent and you know anything that comes with a
47:00
Cambridge University accent no ma no matter what it sounds totally brilliant
47:06
[laughter] and when we chat um, I speak with my Brooklyn accent and I' I've been told
47:12
that no matter how brilliant uh, the ideas are that you you may have, it
47:18
sounds like nonsense. [laughter] So here we have this Brooklyn guy talking to Cambridge University and well
47:26
I need I needn't say anymore but he has a theory it's called morphic resonance and he says the brain is merely a
47:33
transducer that the information is somewhere out there he doesn't know where but
47:38
somewhere out there it could be you know there's a lot of water out there it could be in easy water for example it's
47:45
not his idea but I'm just suggesting one possibility for which I have no evidence
47:52
whatsoever. It's just a a speculation, but that the brain is essentially a
47:57
transducer. It's like a TV set. You know, the information is not in the TV set. The information um is
48:03
electromagnetic and the TV set is merely a transducer that allows you uh to
48:09
capture the information. Well, I've I've heard this I've heard uh briefly this theory and and one of the um I guess the
48:17
logic, excuse [clears throat] me, the logic behind it is that the human body is made up of a ton of different transducers like sight, you know, smell,
48:24
touch, like these are all transducers. um light photosynthesis, you know, for plants or for human body for vitamin D
48:31
production, things like like a lot of these are are not um at least that that was what I what I heard at least uh for
48:38
the logic behind potentially, you know, our consciousness and and and
48:44
our and our memory and you know, potentially that being more of a transducer than actually a local storage of of the
48:52
Yeah, it makes sense if you begin thinking about it. Yeah. the the brain
48:57
is so limited um in the amount of information it can store. If you accept
49:03
the usual understanding of how the brain and how the brain works, it just simply
49:09
doesn't have the capacity to store all the information that that we've got.
49:15
Nobody really understands how all this works, but uh it's it's one of those frontier areas and need needs to be
49:23
studied. And the fact that water can store information
49:29
is is knowledge that is fundamental to figuring out how we think. I think of
49:35
the brains. Perhaps you've seen the evidence of people whose brains are whose brain cavity is essentially empty.
49:42
They've got like 10% of their brain and they function almost almost normally
49:48
with 10% of their brain. [clears throat] There are various studies on that. It's astonishing and it certainly provides a
49:55
clue about you know how information is stored and how how how it works in in
50:02
our body. So the brain may be important but it's not perhaps all
50:08
of of of the mechanism of of information retention and understanding.
50:15
Wow. This is amazing. Um okay I I'd like to take this back a little bit. um
50:22
before the lab, before um you you were Gerald Pollock, PhD, you know, the the
50:28
the leading scientist currently it seems on on uh easy and structured water. Um
50:34
before all of this, you know, you were a child, you know, you're growing up, you were learning about who you who you
50:42
wanted to be, who who you were. I I'm curious um what sort of early obsession
50:48
or maybe an accident, you know, led you uh maybe change that trajectory toward
50:53
this path that you're currently on? Well, thank you. That's a penetrating question. I I I I really uh as a child I
51:03
I I think I had a normal childhood uh with loving parents, parents that didn't
51:10
um didn't restrict me in in any way. So I I felt a kind of sense of freedom um
51:17
not constrained but it was uh my first career. So water is my second career and
51:24
my first career was muscle contraction uh trying to figure out how muscles work
51:29
at the fundamental level and I was hugely influenced by a Japanese guy who
51:35
came to work with me as a graduate student at the University of Pennsylvania.
51:40
and I was working with uh with with muscles with heart muscle in particular and it was his task to take over where I
51:48
left off because I'd been eight years. It's time enough for my PhD. Uh [snorts]
51:54
and I think my adviser liked me so he kept me on doing one one thing after
52:00
another. So this guy came, his name was Tatsuo Iwazumi. Uh and he was a an ultra talented guy
52:09
whose uh whose kids at age four began playing the violin and they both went to
52:15
Giuliard and they they both became accomplished violinists.
52:21
Um but but he was a scientist and he told me, you know, he couldn't take over
52:27
my project because it was fundamentally wrong. I I said, "Well, what do you mean it's fundamentally wrong? What are you
52:34
talking about?" He said, "Well, the theory that you're invoking and muscle
52:40
contraction um is wrong." I said, "Well, wait a second. This theory is a theory that's
52:46
put forth by Sir Andrew Huxley. Not only a Nobel laureate but a Nobel laureate
52:53
among Nobel laureates. Uh [snorts] he comes from the Huxley family. He won a Nobel Prize previously. Uh he was master
53:01
of Trinity College, Cambridge, president of the Royal Society. When he walks in,
53:08
uh there's a hush in the room. It's like God has just walked in. That's that's
53:14
whose theory it is. You mean to tell me there's something wrong with his theory? Well, yeah, it's impossible.
53:20
What do you mean it's impossible? He said, and and this guy came from a
53:25
background of um a lot of engineering from the University of Tokyo, which is
53:32
um the number one university uh in Japan and MIT. and uh he he'd been around and
53:39
then somehow he wound up at the University of Pennsylvania. He said it's not stable. He said uh in the first
53:45
contraction the muscle will fall apart. Oh, come on. What are you talking about?
53:50
How is it possible? You know, it's this guy's theory and he's so important and
53:56
so famous. Well, he convinced me that five minutes that he was correct. And
54:02
since then, unfortunately, he passed recently. Since then, nobody's ever refuted his argument,
54:10
which is pretty interesting. So, u it convinced me that, you know, it doesn't
54:15
matter if you're a Nobel laureate, you still can be wrong. And that was that made a big impression. So I uh I started
54:24
my career having a bit of doubt um about accepted that accepted theory and
54:31
gradually it wore on to other accepted theories that that we think of all the
54:36
time as being correct simply because they're in the textbook and I learned that simply because simply because
54:43
they're in the textbook doesn't mean they're right. There are a lot of things in the textbook that I I have come to
54:48
doubt. Uh and anyway, we started doing experiments on muscle contraction
54:56
and um we had three different experimental results that refuted
55:01
directly Huxley's theory. I never met the guy. I mean, you don't usually come
55:07
to meet God. [laughter] Uh but I decided after we had these three experiments, I would take a trip
55:14
to London and meet the guy, you know. Um, so I went to London and I remember I
55:20
was sitting on the park bench. Um, I arrived 30 minutes early. I didn't want to be late. So he meets me at the door,
55:27
um, the place at 9:00, precisely the time I was supposed to arrive. um and
55:34
pleasant. And he escorts me up to his his office, you know, not an opulent
55:41
kind of place like anybody else's office, and sits me down um and asks me,
55:49
"Well, you know, please show me your results." I showed him my results, and we spent three hours together. He asked
55:56
me numerous questions about the protocols and the specific specific
56:02
examples of results from each of the three experiments. I had no idea what he really thought
56:08
about it. Whether he thought that these experiments really did refute his theory
56:14
or whether or not or whether he thought, yeah, they counter his idea, but he's
56:20
not going to make make much of it because he doesn't want to be challenged. I I'm not sure. But anyway,
56:28
I want to make a point about um about the meeting of Sir Andrew Huxley. um
56:35
when it was over three hours later and there was a a younger student it wasn't
56:40
a student he was actually worker in his lab he said not one word during the three hours just sitting and listening
56:47
so sir Andrew um who I actually came to know pretty well um um after a while he
56:55
turns around opens up a cabinet and pulls out a bottle of cherry and pours three glasses of cherry for us and what
57:03
I learned from that experience is that if you're an ultra famous Nobel laureate
57:12
who nobody will challenge and nobody will challenge him. I I I learned that
57:18
you just simply don't challenge Sir Andrew Huxley, you know, unless you're a nutcake like me and you know, you
57:24
believe in data. Data don't fit. Sorry, [laughter] it doesn't fit. You know, I
57:30
wasn't brash in that way. I was very polite. But I noticed the guy's lonely.
57:35
He's sitting in an ivory tower. Nobody would challenge him. Could you imagine sitting in an ivory tower and nobody
57:43
will challenge you ever? Even if you're absolutely dead wrong and you say something that's completely
57:49
preposterous, nobody will challenge you. It sort of reminds me a little bit about
57:54
our political situation. But I learned I learned two things. So I learned first of all that the more important you are,
58:00
the more lonely you get. Um um he taught me he taught me that. And
58:07
also I I learned that if you're so esteemed as as he was, he passed uh I
58:13
think about eight years ago. If you're so esteemed um um there's no challenge
58:20
uh nobody can effectively challenge you because everybody in the field will assume that you're right and will want
58:27
to be anointed by you. It will make you a career. Sir Andrew Huxley says, "Oh, you got good experiments. That's great.
58:34
The last thing you want to do is to get into the camp of a challenger like me
58:39
and there were others but the challengers they all lost and I I wouldn't say we lost um um we almost
58:48
kind of lost people didn't pay attention to uh what we produced in that
58:53
so what was the result of that meeting then how did it well the the results were that I learned
59:00
uh two things one is as I said the loneliness and two I came to realize how
59:06
um how important was um the the the fact of notoriety, you know, when um when
59:13
your challenge when when your nemesis is um is a guy who won a Nobel Prize and is
59:21
a member of the famous Huxley family and is president of the Royal Society,
59:26
master of Trinity College, Cambridge, there's no way that your challenge uh can can prevail. almost no way because
59:34
people don't want to pay attention to anything you do. They would prefer to pay attention to him
59:40
because it's meaningful for their career. It's less meaningful to pay
59:45
attention to stuff that [snorts] we've produced. But I got to tell you, I present each year I'm invited to the
59:52
University of Calgary to present and my my colleague there uh presents the
59:57
standard story to the students. Then he invites me to present in one-hour lecture why they're wrong and why
1:00:05
there's a different mechanism that prevails. And each year he's he's been inviting me back for like 15 years
1:00:12
because the students love it. And they they've asked me this is so obvious that
1:00:17
you've got the right answer. How you know how is it possible that everybody is still thinking still now after 1955
1:00:26
was the time the theory or 54 the theory came out. How how could they still
1:00:33
believe that particular theory when your evidence is so compelling? You know, you've repeated your critical
1:00:39
experiments three or four different ways and gotten the same result and so many people have in your laboratory have done
1:00:46
it. How's it possible? And I try to explain to them that, you know, if you're important, um, it it matters less
1:00:54
whether you're right. You're just important and you'll prevail. So, has this has this always been a quality that
1:00:59
you had? Even bringing it back to your childhood, um, has this always been a qu like a a quality that you've had like to
1:01:05
seek truth above, you know, all else and be that be able to stand in in opposition to the mainstream narrative.
1:01:13
I I'd like to say yes, but I think it's not true. I would love to hear. Mine was just a a
1:01:18
normal a normal childhood. Um you know playing with lots of friends and um you
1:01:24
know being pretty good student uh not the best one but uh pretty good um you
1:01:31
know and u uh normal. It was in my graduate student days and young
1:01:37
professor days that I learned about the system. I I learned about how it works.
1:01:43
And what I learned is, you know, that science, this field, the the endeavor of
1:01:49
science is not as pristine as we'd like to think. There's a lot of a lot of uh I
1:01:55
hate to use the word corruption, but I guess there's a lot of corruption that goes on that has to do with
1:02:00
personalities, that has to do uh has to do with with
1:02:06
egos and stuff like that. I I would tell you that it in me it instilled a a sense
1:02:13
that that just because a theory is in the textbooks just because almost
The Problem With The Atom
1:02:20
everybody believes that it's correct doesn't mean that it's correct. Mhm. There are many factors that go into
1:02:27
establishing a belief system. Um I I I
1:02:33
just deviate one bit because I have to mention um you know the the atom. So I
1:02:41
have a have three books uh that I'm working on. Uh one of which is is
1:02:47
finished waiting for my son the artist uh uh to do it. And no this this book is just about
1:02:54
being published. This is a different one and I'm happy to discuss it in a few minutes if you like. But the next one is
1:03:01
on the structure of the atom. The one after that is on volcanoes and earthquakes and the one after that is on
1:03:09
cell biology. Um [snorts] that one's half done. Um the others are pretty much
1:03:15
done especially the atom book. And I wanted to mention the atom book just to pro to to make a point. Um [snorts] the
1:03:21
structure of the atom was uh in the the structure that we kind of believe these
1:03:26
days was initiated by Nils Boore u in the early very early 1900s.
1:03:33
Um it prevails today. There are modifications that have to do with quantum mechanics uh which most people
1:03:40
believe and some people doubt. But the the essential model which you learned
1:03:46
and I learned and everybody learned pretty much is pretty much intact and that is you've got a nucleus uh that
1:03:54
contains protons and neutrons and some now subatomic particles and you've got
1:03:59
electrons that or electron clouds that circle the nucleus. So it's been around
1:04:04
for five generations. We all believe that since it's been around for five generations it must be correct.
1:04:11
Yeah. Right. You believe it's correct? I believe it's correct. Change my mind. [laughter]
1:04:16
Okay. Well, I I I believe I might be able to change your mind in five minutes. Um uh because we're we're
1:04:24
talking about middle school concepts. We're not talking about about comp
1:04:29
complicated concepts. Um okay, first point, nucleus. Nucleus consists of
1:04:36
protons and neutrons. Basically, neutrons are neutral. We don't have to pay attention to them. Exactly. Uh
1:04:43
[snorts] but protons are positive and you squeeze a lot of positive charges together and what do they want to do?
1:04:49
Repel. Repel. So and the repulsive force is actually u much much stronger than than
1:04:57
you think. And I can provide the evidence for that in a moment and it's in the book. Much [snorts] much
1:05:02
stronger. Not just much stronger. Anyway, if you put all these positive charges and squeeze them together, the
1:05:09
nucleus wants to blow up, right? So, what prevents it from
1:05:15
exploding? Well, the physicists did think about that and they said, well,
1:05:21
since we know the model is correct, there must be something that holds it together. And they invented a kind of
1:05:27
glue to hold it together which is called quote the strong force which has become
1:05:33
a a an essential feature of nature. A fundamental feature of nature the strong
1:05:39
force. This was invented and it has just the characteristics so it holds the
1:05:44
nucleus together and it doesn't impact anything else. This was taken from
1:05:50
someone's imagination. There's like Star Wars. Like Star Wars. Yeah. There's no there's
1:05:56
no evidence for it. It's just it must exist, you know. So, if you like that, then you'll be happy retaining the
1:06:03
model. But there's more. Now, electrons are negatively charged. And in middle school, I learned that
1:06:10
negative charge attracts positive charge, right? Yeah. So, you got a positive charged nucleus,
1:06:16
right? And and around around the nucleus are these electrons. And my
1:06:22
understanding is that the two are attracting one another. So my question is how come these electrons or electron
1:06:29
clouds don't collapse onto the nucleus?
1:06:36
You're Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh um
1:06:42
yeah. Cuz I Yeah. I would imagine that you would not You're right. Yeah. you would not have an electron field around
1:06:48
the nucleus because it would collapse in because because negative and positives attract. Now, of course, that's my
1:06:55
middle school understanding, you know, of the physics. You know, it's valid. Your middle school understanding is like everybody else's
1:07:02
and and you know, if plus attracts minus, there's a big problem. Even even Neils Boore when asked about the
1:07:09
hydrogen atom uh one posit one plus a nucleus one minus and electrons are now
1:07:16
electron clouds he he was asked how come they don't coales he said they just
1:07:22
don't they just don't they just don't now if that if that's satisfactory for you then keep the model
1:07:30
it's fine no I don't I don't think I am satisfied with that anymore so so did I convince you in 3 minutes or
1:07:37
so that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. Yes, there's a problem. There are many more problems that I
1:07:42
don't need almost as simple [snorts] um uh that I I I
1:07:50
expose in the book and and my conclusion is um there's something wrong with the model, something fundamentally wrong
1:07:57
because it's not stable. Atoms need to be stable. This table is made of atoms
1:08:03
stuck together. And um the table doesn't explode and it doesn't collapse into a
1:08:10
point, right? Table's there indefinitely. This one is more than 100 years old. It's been stable for a long
1:08:17
time. So we need another model. So, so are you suggesting I mean are you
1:08:24
suggesting that that matter and and maybe I'm extrapolating too far here, but are you
1:08:32
suggesting that the material world we're looking at is not necessarily
1:08:38
built upon atoms the way that we know them. uh at
1:08:45
because because there's there's there's there's the there's another perspective of matter
1:08:51
and it's more of an energetic perspective of matter that it is a
1:08:57
I I don't know enough about it to get into it but but then there's the particle understanding like like matter is a thing you know that comes together
1:09:03
like a bunch of atoms coming together to make the table right and and the atom is like the
1:09:09
one of the most indivisible you know or I should say the the protons should be one of the most indivisible you know,
1:09:14
units of matter. But matter is still a thing you can touch, right? Whereas whereas energy or frequency those that's
1:09:21
a totally different model or way of thinking about how material things, you know, come into be. But if you're if
1:09:27
you're challenging the structure of the atom, are you also potentially challenging
1:09:34
that there are a base unit of physical like material thing that comes together?
1:09:40
No, I'm not challenging that. Now, I've heard about the energetic argument.
1:09:45
Frankly, I don't understand it. Um, doesn't it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's correct. Maybe it's a
1:09:50
limitation on my part, but I think of atoms in a traditional sense that that they're the building block of everything
1:09:58
we touch and feel and see. Uh, and and the textbook version of it
1:10:04
simply doesn't work. Got it. So therefore, either we stick with it and we continue to build on it and science
1:10:11
becomes ever more complex. When you build on a foundation that's not the right foundation, everything becomes
1:10:17
incredibly complicated. And I I believe that's where we are in science today. Uh
1:10:24
extremely complicated. Mother nature uh this is my own personal
1:10:30
view. um it believes in simplicity and u if we have a mechanism uh comes from
1:10:36
mother nature that um is straightforward and and simple good chance it's correct
1:10:42
good our understand our understanding is what mother nature had in mind if it's
1:10:48
if we have to twist our arms and legs in order to scratch our heads to come come
1:10:54
to an understanding my initial take on it is it's probably
1:11:00
wrong and we better start all over to figure out what might be right. I I I
1:11:06
understand it's a pretty radical uh point of view that I'm taking. Um I'm
1:11:12
I'm interested in truth um in search of truth. I can tell I don't I don't like I don't like um
1:11:19
mechanisms that I really have to try hard to understand and can't even then
1:11:25
can't can understand them and I find my colleagues don't understand them either and [snorts] we tend to believe because
1:11:32
they've been around for a long time they must be correct. I don't believe that they're necessarily correct. I believe
1:11:39
you got to start from from foundational concepts and build from there. And so
1:11:45
the atom is about as fundamental as as I can get. However, the discussion that
1:11:51
we've had um about consciousness and energies and such, they play a role
1:11:56
somewhere and memory, water memory, they play a role. The role needs to be
1:12:01
elucidated. And I don't know what happens after we elucidate it because I don't know where the mechanism, the
1:12:07
fundamental mechanism lies. Well, it it seems like if consciousness and other
1:12:12
energy forms, light, um, sound, have an effect on information, right, and
1:12:19
information stored in water. Yes. Then if that is true, then we are
1:12:24
affecting the physical world in some capacity, even if it seems minor, at least in our in the studies that are
1:12:30
that that we're discussing now. Um, I say minor, but like, you know, I I I can't think, oh, that mountain will go
1:12:36
away and then it just goes away. like that that would be a dramatic shift right in the effect of like my
1:12:42
consciousness on the material world around me. But we are seeing at least that there is some sort of effect uh
1:12:48
from consciousness to the the physical world. And so if that's the case then that is an effect of potentially I mean
1:12:55
once again taking a leap here but like that is an effect of an energy form and we see the effect obviously of energy forms like infrared radiation with easy
1:13:01
water for example sunlight um sound and simatics or sound on the on the memory
1:13:08
of water and then and then when you freeze that the the structure that that it begins to show. I mean like we're seeing energy form affecting physical
1:13:14
form and so it doesn't seem I I I don't want to I don't think we're ready to make any claims or anything but it does
1:13:20
seem like there's definitely a connection between between the energetic to the physical and if that's the case
1:13:26
then it I feel like it is intersecting with the challenge that you're presenting on the physical building
1:13:34
block being the atom and that being the way that we end up getting to a physical reality or a product or a material like
1:13:40
you know this able here could well um we just don't know because I I haven't even seen a
1:13:46
a working hypothesis for how consciousness can affect matter or can affect water at least.
1:13:53
I think that would be an incredible collaboration between your your laboratory and another um laboratory
1:14:00
that's working on consciousness. That would be an incredible um to to to generate a hypothesis and then do an
1:14:06
experiment to see uh if there's some way I know I know of two uh two places that
1:14:12
are approaching this as scientifically as possible. Um well I know some folks too um you know
1:14:19
um but you have three scientists and you have three different ideas
1:14:25
collaborations work if if the collaborations are natural and
1:14:30
if if there's a a complimentary um ability to work in complimentary ways
1:14:39
um well you know it's been said that great ideas don't usually come from
1:14:44
committees they come from individuals. [laughter] So I, you know, I
1:14:51
I I take your comment in a well-meaning way, but I I'm not sure that that that
1:14:58
the hypothesis will come out of such a collaboration. We'll see. Maybe maybe
What is Structured Water - EZ (Exclusion Zone) Water
1:15:03
I'm wrong. Maybe you're right. Um Okay. So, I'd like to start moving the
1:15:09
conversation toward your current work in structured water. And I know you have a a different word for it because
1:15:15
everything has structure. Um, you call it exclusion zone or easy water. Could you give us like a a quick, you know,
1:15:22
2-minute summary of of what exactly is this structured water? It's not liquid. It's not gas. It's not ice. It's
1:15:28
something different. And apparently that is the um that is the the form of water
1:15:35
that is mostly in our bodies it seems. Is that right? Yeah, that's that's exactly um correct.
1:15:41
And you know the the way um an easy way you can think about the water in our
1:15:48
body, think about the think about a raw egg. Crack open a raw egg and examine
1:15:55
the egg white. Now we're told that the cytoplasm is um is
1:16:03
just like liquid water just just like this. But you can see from the cytoplasm
1:16:09
from from the egg white uh that it's a gel. Uh and that gel is essentially what
1:16:18
we've we've discovered we call easy water or fourth phase water. Another way
1:16:24
you can determine that it's not liquid water that is inside your body or inside
1:16:30
your gel, inside your cell, um you can, if you're brave, you can take a razor
1:16:36
blade, [snorts] um run it along your forearm, [clears throat]
1:16:42
cut. And if you do that, what you find is that blood comes out, right? Um but
1:16:47
water doesn't come out. And oddly, well, um, it would seem oddly that if the
1:16:54
cells are filled with easy water and if you cut the cells, the water should come pouring out as from a breached water
1:17:02
pipe, but it doesn't do that. even even surgeons who um I've got a friend who's
1:17:07
a surgeon and she tells me that you know deep in the abdomen and you cut through a muscle and you'd expect that the water
1:17:16
which in theory is inside the cell should come pouring out but it doesn't never comes pouring out. So,
1:17:23
I'd never thought about it that way, but well, yeah, I'm, you know, it's it's good to give some practical examples
1:17:29
that examples that could convince you. There's something else that something
1:17:35
else that's inside the cell. And I first I first learned about uh this and I
1:17:40
didn't invent the idea. I learned about it from a guy named Gilbert Ling who
1:17:46
passed about five years ago. Gilbert came from China. He was chosen um after
1:17:52
World War II in 1948. The Chinese government decided they were
1:17:58
going to send their most pro promising young scholars to advance their careers
1:18:04
in the US and um over a period of two years they identified four people who
1:18:11
they sent over and Gilbert Ling was one of them. The other three won Nobel prizes. Gilbert did not win a Nobel
1:18:18
Prize. Many people think he should have won two Nobel prizes for all the many contributions that he made. But he was
1:18:25
he was a controversial guy and the work that he was doing was controversial. I
1:18:32
first met him at a conference in Hungary. The conference was to uh um uh
1:18:38
to honor the life of a famous Hungarian bioysicist whose name was Ernst.
1:18:45
Um yeah two two fields uh of interest. One was muscle contraction and the other
1:18:51
was water. I represented muscle contraction and I presented uh my ideas
1:18:58
and I I guess it went okay and then Gilbert Lick Lane Ling came and presented his ideas on water inside the
1:19:05
cell and I was simply blown away. He said water inside the cell is not like
1:19:12
water in a glass. He said it's not liquid water. It's different. He said um he called it structured water and I I
1:19:19
think that's where the name originated. He he his idea his idea was that the
1:19:25
molecules of water were actually uh stacked on one another or lined up like
1:19:31
soldiers at attention. And you can imagine such because many people think of a water molecule as being like a
1:19:38
dipole, you know, like a bean with plus at one end, minus at the other end. And
1:19:43
so you can imagine how these beans would stack upon one another. And that was his idea. Um it's ordered, it's structured,
1:19:51
it's not it's not randomly oriented molecules bouncing around rapidly.
1:19:58
I was astonished. Um he had so much evidence in favor of some kind of some
1:20:03
kind of structure. um and other people came after him who had been specifically
1:20:09
invited who [snorts] supported his point of view who had evidence in support. I
1:20:15
was I was mesmerized. I was blown away. But you know, I realized um I have a
1:20:21
proclivity for getting blown away by interesting stuff. And so I had to pinch
1:20:27
myself. And the way I pinched myself was to come back and give one of his books
1:20:32
to some of my more promising students. Read his book. Tell me what you think
1:20:37
about this. because I didn't tell them but um I'm thinking this is so important
1:20:44
uh that you know we're maybe going to shift our interest from muscle contraction to water. They came back to
1:20:52
me and their their reactions were the same. Uh this is
1:20:57
so important. Um this is so interesting and he has so much evidence to support
1:21:03
his point of view presented in in that book. and if he's right, everybody else
1:21:08
is wrong. Now, that's pretty captivating, I must, I tell you. So, it was then that I
1:21:16
decided to get into the field. Um, I was excited, satisfied, happy with the work
1:21:23
we were doing in muscle contraction, but I'm thinking water may be more important than muscle.
1:21:30
Uh, I mean, it's more foundational. It's more foundational. Right. Well put. That's what I meant. more more
1:21:35
foundational. Um and so we didn't have any money to study water. Although um
1:21:43
you know muscle is mostly water. If you count Yeah. If you count if you line up all
1:21:48
the molecules in um in in the muscle,
1:21:54
you'll find that it's not it's 2/3 by volume, but if you line up all the molecules because the water molecule is
The Problem With Circulatory System - EZ Water May Assist Circulation
1:22:00
so small in order to fill that 2/3, you need a lot of water molecules. So, it turns out you do the arithmetic turns
1:22:07
out that 99 more than 99 out of a 100red of the molecules in the muscle are water
1:22:14
molecules. and um you know so so in theory we we
1:22:20
ought to be able to spend the money that we have to study muscle to study water but I felt I felt it was cheating a
1:22:27
little bit to do that so so rather than um getting immersed immediately into
1:22:34
studying w um I wrote a book and it's called sales
1:22:41
jails and the engines of life and the main reason for writing the book was to
1:22:46
present Gilbert Ling's ideas in a way that even mortals like myself could
1:22:52
understand. His stuff I'm not sure maybe his personality or
1:22:59
something but he had he was thinking that everybody is just as brilliant as he is. And so he'd sit down at the word
1:23:06
processor or the typewriter before that bat out something and send it to the publisher. The idea editing was not
1:23:14
familiar to him. I wondered I wonder that was whether that was part of the it
1:23:20
was missing from the Chinese language. Maybe the word editing. [laughter]
1:23:25
I'm not sure. So Gilbert hated my book. I thought he would love the book, but he
1:23:32
hated it. And um he became my enemy. Uh it took me 10 years to restore that
1:23:40
friendship. I tried and tried and tried and I I think he felt that well or he
1:23:46
told me that that I didn't mention his name often enough in the book. Well, it's going back to what you were
1:23:52
saying earlier with uh like the politics of science a little bit. The politics of science. Yeah. We, you
1:23:57
know, we're all human, right? Yeah. And we have egos and such. And so I I think he felt I was stealing his
1:24:04
thunder. And you know, I I could understand it. But when finally we had evidence for
1:24:10
long range ordering of water, he stood up at a conference and was clapping his
1:24:16
hands. He was so happy and then we became friends once again. So um I I was
1:24:23
pleased about that. At any rate that's that's where we started. Then we managed to get a little bit of money and we
1:24:29
started doing experiments. So what we found, we tried at first it was merely
1:24:36
an attempt um to to prove uh that
1:24:42
Gilbert's ideas were were correct or that he was right on track, that there was such a thing as structured water. We
1:24:48
wanted to demonstrate that and and we did. We we could demonstrate in short
1:24:54
order that there there was there was a kind of ordering of water that occurred.
1:25:00
Uh, I'll skip the details of the experiment because maybe maybe they're
1:25:05
not not so interesting. But we found we found a region where where
1:25:12
water molecules excluded any any kind of substance that
1:25:18
was dissolved in the water or suspended in the water. So that's why we called it exclusion zone. And the other reason was
1:25:26
exclusion zone EZ easy to remember. Yeah. And it works. And so we use that term
1:25:33
very often. Later we called it fourth phase water because everything about the
1:25:38
nature of that exclusion zone differed from ordinary liquid water.
1:25:44
Could you could you list a couple um a a few of those those differences between
1:25:50
easy water and liquid? I think I think we easily we we understand the difference between gas and ice. Uh but
1:25:56
liquid and structured water seem very similar to probably most people and and so I'm curious what your
1:26:02
Well, yeah, one of them is viscosity. So easy water has a high viscosity
1:26:09
u and and higher viscosity and that harks back to to the gel like behavior
1:26:17
that I mentioned earlier. Um, so high viscosity is one, order is another. The
1:26:24
molecules are ordered in some way, which is really what we wanted to find out and we found out. And the third a third one
1:26:32
there are a dozen of them. But let me just focus on the third one because
1:26:37
that's maybe the most important one. Um um this this region of water we presumed
1:26:45
is going to be neutral because we started with neutral water, neutral liquid water. So of course it should be
1:26:52
neutral. We made measurements of the electrical potential in that exclusion
1:26:59
zone and we thought should be neutral but turned out to be negative negatively
1:27:05
charged typically negatively charged and that didn't make sense at all because
1:27:11
when you start with neutral liquid water, how could you wind up with a large zone of negative charge? You know
1:27:19
who who created that negative charge? Where did it come from? and uh a lot of head scratching and and we're thinking
1:27:27
there must be another region that has positive charge equal amount of positive charge and we found it just beyond the
1:27:34
easy so we found the the easy is created next to some surface uh early on in the
1:27:41
experiments a hydrophilic surface hydrophilic surface right and next to this hydrophilic surface we found this
1:27:49
exclusion zone of fourthphase water negatively charged And right next to it was positive charge. Protons uh lodged
1:27:57
in the water and usually protons stick onto water molecules forming what's
1:28:03
called hydrronium ion. But that's of secondary importance. The important part
1:28:08
was we got negative charge next to positive charge and it didn't collapse. Similar to your
Water Battery
1:28:13
atom critique, right? It didn't collapse. And you know I might mention the region it
1:28:19
didn't the reason it didn't collapse since you asked the question is that the structure of the easy turned out not to
1:28:26
be as Gilbert Ling thought you know a lineup of of water molecules. It turned
1:28:32
out to have a different structure. the water underwent a change and and the
1:28:38
change is next to this hydrophilic or water loving surface. Uh the water turned into um uh layers surfaces. One
1:28:48
surface then another surface and another and each surface is nucleated by the
1:28:53
previous surface forms a template for the growth of the next one. And these layers can extend out up to a million of
1:29:00
them is typical. Um that would be uh half a half a millimeter or so. You
1:29:06
could see it with your naked eye. Oh really? Yeah. Now the structure of each layer is
1:29:13
a honeycomb structure you know like um uh
1:29:21
many hexagonal kinds of structures appear throughout nature and this is one of them. So, so you've got hexagons here
1:29:29
and the opening of the hexagon is very small. It's it's made even smaller by
1:29:35
the fact that the next layer also hexagons but shifted slightly half of
1:29:40
the width of a hexagon. So, it means the holes the hex hexagonal holes to get get
1:29:47
through are very very small. the hydrononeium ions that are sitting out here the positive although the positive
1:29:54
would deutely love to enter into this matrix u but can't get there because the
1:30:00
holes are too small that's the key that's what prevents the two from combining fascinating
1:30:05
that's what keeps them separated that's what creates a battery yeah a water battery
1:30:10
the water battery and so uh you know that that's one of the main
1:30:16
features is that the water becomes a battery. You know, we never think of water as a battery, but water is a
1:30:23
battery. It's it's funny how we um and I know I'm jumping a little bit here, but we were
1:30:29
talking earlier about consciousness of of water. Uh or I'm sorry, the potential relationship between our consciousness
1:30:34
and and the water in our body or the the easy water in our bodies. Um, but there's like this other this other
1:30:41
connection which is like energy levels like like like my ability to feel tired or feel energized um physically and
1:30:49
potentially water's ability to to when structured, you know, to create these
1:30:55
positive and negative zones that potentially create some sort of um loop or energy like a battery quite
1:31:02
literally. And I'm curious. I I can't help but wonder, you know, I'm curious if that is related to how someone might
1:31:09
feel, you know, chronically tired or other people might feel more invigorated, you know, at different
1:31:15
times. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, this is energy. Of course, the question um that
1:31:22
your question leads to is um is this energy used by nature? Mhm. Well, if easy water is filling your
1:31:30
cells um uh which bunch of evidence is suggesting that
1:31:36
that is the case. Um then um that energy is used and we have some evidence um so
1:31:44
far um some evidence that that energy is definitely used
1:31:50
u in the cardiovascular system. I I um I could go into it if if you want, but
1:31:56
maybe briefly, I know you had mentioned about how the heart potentially can't really pump all the blood through all of
1:32:03
the vessels through our body, but that there might be a different mechanism related to this. Is that where you were? In the laboratory, we found that if we
1:32:10
take a hydrophilic tube um like a straw and immerse it in water, we found that
1:32:17
flow goes through the tube. Now, [snorts] we would never expect it because usually you need a pressure
1:32:22
gradient to shove uh fluid through a tube, you know, like your heart establishes
1:32:30
pressure and and the flow goes through the large arteries, but it doesn't. And
1:32:35
we found the energy is coming from infrared light from outside to make a
1:32:42
long story short. Um, okay. Meanwhile, we jumped to the cardiovascular system
1:32:47
and it was a it was a Russian guy who uh convinced me that there's some big
1:32:53
problem in the cardiovascular system and that is um you got to get the red blood
1:32:58
cells to pass through the capillaries and the capillaries are many of them most of them are half the diameter of
1:33:06
the red blood cell. So, you know, it's like um um you got to squeeze, you know,
1:33:13
it's sort of like like stuffing you like your toilet gets stopped. You know, you take a plunger and you plunge and you
1:33:20
need to exert bit of energy to clear the toilet. Well, nature has to exert a bit
1:33:25
of energy to push those red blood cells through the capillaries. And you could
1:33:30
see them in videos. I have a video. You can see the the red blood cells are squeezed this way. It takes a lot of
1:33:37
energy. Russian guy calculated if the left ventricle is responsible for
1:33:43
supplying that kind of energy. The u amount of pressure that would have to be
1:33:49
developed is something like a million times the pressure that it actually develops. That's high blood pressure.
1:33:56
[clears throat] Million times. So obviously there's something else that's going on. And it didn't take long for him to convince me
1:34:02
that that was the case. Although I I started with my nose up in the air thinking what's he going to tell me
1:34:08
that's interesting but it was very interesting. So there's got to be something else. He has a halfozen
1:34:15
different ideas. I had another idea. We saw in the laboratory if you have a tube
1:34:21
um uh immersed in water flow goes through the tube. So I'm thinking um it
1:34:27
could be that the vessels themselves just like the tube the vessels are
1:34:33
actually helping to drive the flow. We found that experimentally that that was the case. So this is one example
1:34:41
where um um the the energy infrared energy
1:34:47
from outside which is building the easy water is supplying um uh and and
1:34:53
separating charge is supplying the energy uh for something circulation for circulation. Yeah. And it could be
1:35:00
probably the majority of the circular it could be a majority. We we we don't know. Uh we haven't gotten there yet,
1:35:06
but it's either a majority or minority. Um and um you're you're probably not
1:35:12
aware. I think a lot of people are not aware. We all think it's ATP, a high energy phosphate and ATP that's
1:35:18
supplying our energy. That was my thought. Yeah. Yeah. Well, everybody grows up with that
1:35:24
thought. Same with me until I found out that there were challenges uh to this
1:35:30
point of view. And one of the challenges is by two guys who I know. I almost did a post-doal fellowship with one of them.
1:35:36
And I came to realize only recently that these guys did a classical study. They
1:35:43
challenged the idea that ATP has a high energy phosphate. They did extensive
1:35:49
studies and they concluded that in ATP there's nothing special. The phosphate
1:35:54
energy is just like just like any other phosphate in any other molecule. So the
1:36:00
idea that there's something special about ATP was discounted by them and
1:36:06
several other people after them challenged that point of view. So so we
1:36:11
got a problem here. We don't know for sure who is right. is is the original
1:36:17
paper by Lipenot I think he was a Nobel laureate 1941. Is he right and that ATP
1:36:24
is supplying all of our energy for the marathon that we run or is it possible
1:36:30
that electrical energy uh from easy water is supplying certainly some of it
1:36:37
but it could be all of it. We don't know that it's so critical that studies u
1:36:43
that these studies need to be followed up to see who's right. Is it ATP? Um is
1:36:50
it um electrical energy? Is it both or what? But either way, foundationally though,
1:36:56
structured water seems to have some sort of foundational effect on on on all life
1:37:03
obviously, but health specifically it seems for for human bodies, for plants. Um it seems like if we are mostly water
1:37:10
and water has these unique properties then there's something to be explored here for sure. Um maybe we don't know
1:37:17
exactly all of the health benefits yet of it, but we definitely there's information based on what you said about
1:37:22
the circulatory system and obviously circulatory system is a foundational system, you know, in the body for
1:37:28
health, you know, so the fact that it would have influenced that um you know uh after reading your book um on the
1:37:34
topic of health, but also on you you current research, I I guess um there's just a few more questions I'd like to
1:37:39
cover here to really understand structured water a little bit more. Um,
1:37:45
now you had mentioned that that infrared radiation seems to be the wavelength
1:37:50
that structures water, particularly infrared from the sun. I was curious if you could give him a little bit more
1:37:56
information as to which wavelengths actually grow easy. Is it only infrared?
1:38:01
I I also believe I read um that you had said that ultraviolet radiation might actually be destructive to easy water.
1:38:09
Um, but I I'm not sure. Could you speak a little bit about those? Sure. Sure. Okay. So infrared we found
1:38:15
um the visible wavelength extends up to 800 nanometers approximately that's red
1:38:22
and beyond that is infrared. So you know it's pretty much the same as visible light. It's just that we can't see it.
1:38:28
So it's a kind of artificial distinction. But we did find that red um
1:38:33
uh the long wavelength red near 800 nanometers has a has an effect on
1:38:39
building EZ. It's just that when you get to um a thousand nanometers and
1:38:44
particularly to 3,000 nanometers, it has a ultra powerful effect. It's really
1:38:50
strong. We went up to five um five micrometer 5,000 nanometers and we
1:38:57
experimentally couldn't extend beyond that. But but infrared um in the range
1:39:04
of 800 nanometers to five micrometers, it's all pretty powerful with three
1:39:10
micrometers being being the peak. um and and red and and now there are all kinds
1:39:16
of therapies by the way that use red and use infrared. As far as ultraviolet,
1:39:22
that's at the opposite end of the spectrum, the very short uh wavelength.
1:39:28
We didn't find um that any expansion of the easy uh when exposed to uh
1:39:35
ultraviolet light. However, in recent experiments just published a year ago,
1:39:40
we found that it actually builds it doesn't expand the easy, but it builds charge in the existing builds negative
1:39:47
charge in the existing EZ. Ultraviolet light does ultraviolet. Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, it is interesting. So, so in
1:39:54
fact, at least at the wavelength that we studied, um it it basically builds
1:40:00
energy. Um so, it gives us energy. If if easy water if easy water is giving us
1:40:05
energy um it gives us more energy. Interesting. So it's like so it's like infrared portion of the light spectrum
1:40:12
creates the battery, right? Or creates the easy and ultraviolet it's like trickle charging that battery
1:40:19
or keeping the the flow um of energy through there. Uh well yeah but it's it's not one or the
1:40:27
other. The infrared not only builds EZ but also builds the charge because
1:40:32
without the charge you have no EZ. Okay. But they go together. Yeah. The charge can be amplified by
1:40:37
ultraviolet. Exc. Excellent. Okay. So then you also mentioned um that everything emits
1:40:43
infrared radiation. The human body emits infrared radiation. And I remember thinking to myself uh because I I know
1:40:48
there are products out there that structure water for drinking purposes and whatnot. Um but the first thought that came to my mind was like why why
1:40:54
would I need to structure water outside of my body if the moment I drink it my
1:41:00
body is emitting infrared uh and it's and the water is being put into an environment that would automatically
1:41:06
structure water. Um, and I I was just I um you know, I might be I don't know
1:41:12
anything about this. And so, but the the my my instinct was that maybe I don't
1:41:18
need to worry about water being structured outside of my body because I can take regular liquid water, drink it,
1:41:24
and then it my body might be turning it into structured or easy water inside
1:41:29
where then it has those benefits. I'm curious if you've if you've been presented with that question. Um or if
1:41:36
you've thought about, you know, this. Yeah, I I have thought about it. Um you look to me particularly healthy, which
1:41:43
means your cells are filled with easy water, I think. And indeed, if you drink it, um some of the water that you drink
1:41:51
turns into easy water. Not all, you know, you pee out a lot of it. others um
1:41:58
might or might not get converted but you want to um you you want to maximize any
1:42:05
any conversion. So what I think really happens is is um it's not that the if
1:42:12
you drink structured water you'd think well I'm drinking structured water or easy water for phase water and therefore
1:42:18
I'm going to have a lot in my body and I [snorts] don't think that's the way it works. it. I think it's that you drink
1:42:24
easy water, it's got negative charge. It's a negative charge that seeps out of
1:42:29
the water and seeps into regions that are devoid of um of of that negative
1:42:36
charge. Uh and that we found that that negative charge builds easy water. So if
1:42:43
I take this water here and I put negative charge into it, it'll turn into easy water.
1:42:49
Interesting. Yeah. So it's hard hard to understand a
1:42:55
way if you drink easy water how the easy water migrates into your cells but it's
1:43:01
easier to understand how the negative charge from the easy water that you drink migrates to wherever there's not a
1:43:08
lot of negative charge and thereby converts the water from ordinary liquid
1:43:14
water into easy water. Interesting. Okay. Okay. And then the other thought that came to mind was that it it seemed as though easy water or
1:43:21
structured water um in and of itself was not necessarily
1:43:27
um I don't want to use the word stable, but I I will hear because I don't have a better word for it. Um it seemed like it
1:43:32
wasn't necessarily stable in and of itself. It seemed seemed like it was very dependent on a light source like a source of light like the sun to
1:43:39
structure it and then if that sunlight went away then the easy starts to collapse uh within that same amount of
1:43:45
water. So, so to to think that easy water could be created and then stored,
1:43:51
you know, in a bottle or in the dark or whatever, like that, it didn't make sense to me like that exactly is
1:43:57
possible. It's more of like a an an in like a like a live creation of easy
1:44:03
water while it is being exposed to the energy that is creating it. And then once that goes away, it starts to
1:44:10
collapse. So it's something that if you are creating easy water at least to drink or to expose yourself to in some
1:44:16
capacity uh you should kind in my mind you should be exposed to it in front of the energy source that is creating it.
1:44:23
Well yes and no. Um this needs to be studied. It hasn't been studied
1:44:29
adequately but we we have some evidence that easy water can remain stable over a
1:44:36
long period of time. Okay. We got many years ago um a guy was said he was
1:44:41
creating easy water. He sent us a sample um and at that time we were testing. We
1:44:48
don't test anymore because we just don't have the capacity. Um but he sent it was
1:44:53
sitting on my desk for three months and we tested it after 3 months and it
1:44:58
contained a substantial amount of easy water. So we don't know whether the
1:45:04
original one contained more easy water or whether the easy water is created over time but at least to some extent
1:45:12
the easy water persisted. It could be that the easy is actually pretty stable
1:45:18
in in typical experiments that we do where we take a hydrophilic surface and
1:45:24
we create an easy in in the chamber and usually it it's about half a millimeter
1:45:30
in in extent. If we just let it sit there over a period of a day or two,
1:45:36
it'll decrease. But this is an artificial kind of si
1:45:41
situation. And the bottom line is that studies need to be done.
1:45:46
Uh we don't know the answer to that. Okay. So then um how long does it take to grow easy? Uh obviously you're
1:45:53
mentioning studies on how long it would take for it to collapse or or or you know degrade and we don't know that yet, but I'm assuming you do have a pretty
1:46:00
good idea of how long it takes to create easy. Is there a certain amount of time under a certain amount of sunlight or
1:46:06
etc. uh that it would well I mean every every condition there's an infinite number of conditions
1:46:11
but typically in the laboratory uh we we set up in a chamber and it'll take um uh
1:46:19
maybe 3 minutes or so uh to build an exclusion zone of
1:46:26
uh a third of a millimeter uh a little bit more to get half a millimeter and it
1:46:31
kind of stops. So we're we're talking of a few minutes. Sure. Is there an optimal diameter size uh for
1:46:39
uh in piping you know that you found creates more easy than less? Uh obviously we have you know the
1:46:45
circulatory system which is you know half the size of a blood cell uh seem seemingly creating easy water. Uh but I
1:46:53
assume also in your experiments you've had much larger diameter piping. Well not much larger. Um, no. If you
1:46:59
take if you take a pipe or or a tube,
1:47:04
the maximum width of the zone that builds up is
1:47:09
typically wouldn't be larger than a millimeter. So, if you have a a tube
1:47:16
that's the size, you know, of a meter or something like that, you you're just going to get an annulus of growth. It
1:47:23
won't grow beyond that. might grow a little beyond that but not a whole lot. There are special circumstances where
1:47:29
the easy can grow beyond a millimeter or so. Uh we've done it in a tube, a long
1:47:35
tube, a meter long um like a fluorescent tube and the exclusions will grow at one
1:47:42
end to say a half a millimeter or something and then it'll reduce to a kind of dendritic structure that will
1:47:49
run the full length of the tube a meter sometimes even either split at the end
1:47:54
or uh when it hits the end come even come back. So, it's what you expect of a
1:48:01
crystal, but that's an unusual situation. A millimeter or so is typical of the the
Design Lab Preview (BONUS EPISODE) - Designing Structured Water in the Home
1:48:08
maximum extent. Quick break. We did an entire design lab in the middle of this episode. It's a
1:48:13
working session where we go from conversation to what would we actually build. We talk through what ideas break,
1:48:19
what assumptions change, and how would we validate it. Here's a tiny clip from the workshop. But if the earth is
1:48:24
negatively charged, then ju similar to how I would uh bond a footer, you know,
1:48:30
to um to like a foundation of of a home um or or bond any sort of pool equipment
1:48:36
or metal things around a pool uh in order to or you would or you would ground, you know, the the wiring in your
1:48:42
home. Um in my in my my mind was went to um man, we probably should not be using.
Vortex Research for Water Structuring
1:48:50
Now, if you're part of the Deep Dive Crowd and you want the full design lab, you can grab this bonus episode at the
1:48:55
link below. All right, back to the interview. Let's say you have an unlimited budget.
1:49:00
What is one experiment that you would that you would that you would do right
1:49:06
now? Um, [sighs]
1:49:12
[snorts] being in a position of struggling for budget. [laughter] Uh I I I guess I would study uh the
1:49:20
vortex. Um a lot of people talk about vortices
1:49:25
uh and u they haven't been studied adequately. Um the assumption is made that that
1:49:33
vortices structure water. I haven't really seen any conclusive experiments.
1:49:40
A lot of people think, well, it must be it must be. Um, but if I had an
1:49:45
unlimited budget, I would I would put a couple of engineers to work because um
1:49:52
if vortices do create easy water, it might be that they create them only
1:49:57
during the period of the vortex, not afterward. It may be a transient thing. you know, you're spinning the water and
1:50:04
the surface of that conical surface, I mean, the conical surface is where the
1:50:09
EZ forms and then it might just disappear when you stop uh vortexing.
1:50:15
That's not not clear. Um so, so it need it needs to be
Cancer's Connection to Water in the Body
1:50:20
studied. um uh if we had unlimited budget there's so
1:50:28
many things um we're into studying cancer now um um we produced a paper on
1:50:35
it in fact I'm going [laughter] to be in a film on cancer the idea is everybody
1:50:41
has been studying [snorts] um studying genetic genetic causes of
1:50:46
cancer and if the answer lies somewhere else you know who's going to find it plan and I think it had has there are
1:50:54
various reasons which I maybe don't have time to to go into right now. Um but if
1:51:00
you have very little easy water um cells divide rampantly
1:51:06
that's been well it's been demonstrated that you have low electrical potential small electrical potential
1:51:13
um [snorts] you you have rampant cell division and we know now that small electrical
1:51:19
potential means not much easy water because it's the negative charge of the easy water that builds the electrical
1:51:26
potential in the cell. So, I wrote a paper about uh cancer and it seems to be
1:51:31
attracting some attention and I think there's a fair chance that the answer
1:51:37
does lie in that in the dirt or absence of very much easy water. Love to study
1:51:44
it. We have a little bit of money to study it. Um but
1:51:50
we we I I wouldn't say we're desperate for more money, but we can sure use a
Water Could Produce Electricity for Your Home
1:51:55
lot of money. And there are also all kinds of interesting technologies that I was going to one of them I was
1:52:02
going to mention in terms of the architecture and that is uh we can put electrodes in the easy water one
1:52:09
electrode in the negative one electrode in the positive and we can get actual electrical current that comes out. We
1:52:16
have proof of principle. Um I demonstrate this on v videos often
1:52:21
and some of the talks that I I give. So wouldn't it be in interesting or nice if
1:52:28
you can use this principle inside a home to generate electricity to run all your
1:52:33
appliances? It should work. It's just a matter of scale up. It uses infrared
1:52:38
energy as the source which is all around us. You don't need visible light. Um it
1:52:46
just needs somebody needs to um needs to tackle it. So I I I do a lot of work in
1:52:51
off-grid uh homes and energy production is a big deal. Sure. U obviously um with
1:52:58
needless to be to be said um this this topic uh fascinates fascinates
1:53:04
me absolutely uh I would be very curious and and so there's there's no one
1:53:10
researching or or or doing this topic that you're aware of to like scaling up this water battery.
1:53:16
No, it it remains and it's not under patent.
1:53:21
Oh, hopefully hopefully it doesn't get patented by the wrong team. No, I don't care because I have no interest in making money. I would like
1:53:27
to see this perfected, developed. Yeah, that that would be a I think that would be a really wonderful way to to
How to introduce more Structured Water In Your Life
1:53:33
fund. Um, okay. So, last question for you. Um, what is one way that we can all
1:53:40
introduce more structured water into our lives or into our homes? Easy, low bar.
1:53:48
Well, um drink it um is one, but um you you're never really assured that the
1:53:55
people who are hawking the stuff really do have structured water. Um it's nice
1:54:01
to see the evidence and maybe some of the companies have produced evidence. I
1:54:07
know some of the companies say, "Well, we tried it on plants and they do fantastically on plants and that that is
1:54:12
a good indication that they probably do have it." I haven't invested the time myself to check on these various
1:54:19
companies um to see if they're producing actual water with structure. One of the one of
1:54:26
the odd things um a colleague of mine said, "Hey, when you go to the airport,
1:54:31
you go beyond uh security. You have water fountains that you can use to fill
1:54:37
your water bottle." That's after security because obviously they don't know what you're taking through
1:54:43
security. And there's a company that produces these and I' I've seen them now
1:54:48
in a half dozen airports. Um, so they're all over. They call it easy water.
1:54:54
Oh, really? I I I don't think it's really easy water, but I'm It's really a curiosity.
1:55:00
Maybe it is easy water. I'm not sure, but they call it easy water. Yeah. Well, and I imagine even beyond a
1:55:05
product um like to be able to create structured water. Is there is there a simple way besides obviously I think
1:55:11
going out in the sun is essential. grounding yourself is essential to generate it in within your own body. But uh is there a way to create structured
1:55:17
water simply in the home uh for people? Uh we're working on that. Yeah. Um we're working on it. We're still
1:55:23
we're still not sure um exactly. One one possibility is through
1:55:29
electrical current because it's easy to put negative charge into the water. But
1:55:35
we we're still not sure. I would I would imagine if you could take a glass of water outside and maybe set it on the
1:55:42
ground. Used to be done um still is in some of the ayurveetic or Indian cultures. Some
1:55:49
uh there's a woman working in my lab who is from India and she said her grandfather used to put out bottles of
1:55:55
water colored. Each one is a different color and depending on what illness you
1:56:00
might have, well drink the yellow one. Um um so needs to be tested you know but
Learn More of Dr. Pollack's Work - Books and Contact
1:56:08
there's a lot of wisdom from the Ayurveda culture. Yes. Um okay so how how can people learn
1:56:16
more about the work that you're doing? Um the fourth phase of water uh the book is
1:56:22
uh very popular and well well reviewed. New book I happen to have a copy here.
1:56:29
It's not officially out yet. Um uh but this is a a [snorts] copy from the
1:56:35
printer. Publication date is September 16th, but anybody can pre-order a copy
1:56:42
if they want. And the book's title, the book is called Charged. Um the unexpected role of electricity in the
1:56:49
workings of nature. And what what is the the this unique thread that this is pulling at this
1:56:55
particular book? A lot of us see phenomena around us all
1:57:01
the time. We think we understand them, but we really don't understand them because there are a lot of facts that
1:57:08
don't agree with the theory. And we're talking about things we experience every
1:57:14
day, ranging from weather to gravitation to how birds fly to how planes fly to
1:57:21
how sailboats can go into the wind directly into the wind. Uh which doesn't
1:57:28
make sense because the wind is blowing in the opposite direction, but there's got to be a way. Um, we're talking about
1:57:35
especially about ice boats which which can go essentially directly into the
1:57:40
wind. Uh, what turns the earth every 24 hours? Um, uh, what's responsible for a
1:57:48
wind gust? How do we understand weather from first principles?
1:57:53
All of these are treated in in in this book. So, I've been working on this book
1:58:00
for some time and um part of the beauty of the book is the artwork of my son
1:58:06
Ethan. Um uh a lot of it is is quirky. Most of it is
1:58:13
illustrative. It's a major feature of the book. There are more than 200 color illustrations. So, the book is reader
1:58:20
friendly. You don't need to have a PhD in physics to understand it. And I'm excited about it. We got we got about
1:58:27
two dozen pre-reviews from people who read an early version and um well
1:58:32
they're they're really flattering. So I'm hoping that this book awakens some
1:58:40
some fresh ideas on how things work around us. How you know something as
1:58:47
simple as how planes fly. You'd you'd be surprised. There was an article in Scientific American, not to belabor this
1:58:55
uh scientific American written written by two guys who are considered to be the experts in flight dynamics. The title is
1:59:02
something like how planes fly and the subtitle is surprise despite years of
1:59:09
study we still don't understand how planes fly. [laughter]
1:59:14
It's true. Yeah. I try to provide an explanation here and all of these explanations have
1:59:20
something or other to do with electrical charge and and if if anyone wants to support
1:59:26
like financially donate to and support the uh the work that you're doing, how can they how can they do that?
1:59:31
Just uh email me. Um uh we would be thrilled. It's when you do work that
1:59:37
runs against the mainstream, it's really hard to get money. Um, and we're working
1:59:43
on a pretty flimsy budget right now. Um, if anybody is interested or excited by
1:59:49
some of these ideas, please please contact me. Um, I can give you email is
1:59:56
ghpu.edu.
2:00:02
Yes. And they can find you at the University of Washington. University of Washington. I email is all
2:00:07
over the place. So there's no secret. Awesome. Awesome, Dr. Pollock. I really,
2:00:13
really appreciate you taking this time to sit and have this talk with me. It's been my great pleasure. Um, really
2:00:20
interesting questions that you ask. Um, uh, so so much fun.
Closing Segment
2:00:26
Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks for [music] being here. I would love your help. Comment and let me know
2:00:32
what we should explore next. Don't forget the design lab bonus session is linked below. Subscribe if you want
2:00:37
more.