Why is it so difficult to start up an unique band?

Why is it so difficult to start up an unique band?

I would say 95% of the musicians I know, and know of are very vanilla in their thinking. The only driving force seems to be making a few bucks and making sure people can dance to it. I want to start up a very unique unorthodox band and I would certainly be the only one in my area. unfortunately, it’s very difficult to find others so I have to write and record all the parts myself on several different instruments. Do different cities, have different markets and different interests? All of the bars and restaurants in my area are very service oriented, and there are no real clubs left like there used to be in the 80s and 90s…

Lots of thoughtful comments here, each addressing some painful realities. Ones that stand in the way of creative music making. In truth, though, the problem goes yet deeper. The fact is very few people live creatively. -Even (this makes it yet more sad) those who have some very real gifts. Possibilities. True not just in music but in everything. Think alike or be ignored. Believe that your generation has somehow found “it.” (Mine did. And thought itself rebellious and original when it simply again and again duplicated what supposed idea style setters put before them.) And yes, then there is the selling of it — this after you break the rules and do something truly different. My own answer — which is/was just that: My approach — was to not care. Not let others decide what even my basic goals and values should be. Now approaching 80 I still hear the same songs. Not meaning the literal songs (though that too) but the same old “do what everyone else is doing! That is the key to success” arguments and reasoning. It is blather. Life limiting blather. Yup. For bands, too.

From what I’ve seen…most older players (lets say past their 30s) who haven’t already been substantially into unique/original band situations, don’t seem to have much interest in a start-up original band once they are older. They are either just doing the more typical cover/tribute band thing and/or simply enjoying playing for themselves at home. I’m in the lower Hudson Valley of NY…and the band scene is pretty dead around here. Sure, you can find bands playing, and even the occasional musician’s classifieds in the local CL or other musician’s outlets…but they certainly for the most part are not looking for unique/original start-ups, though I do occasionally see someone who is looking for an existing Emo/Indie band or something odd…but they are not trying to start-one up, and most of those ads just sit. I’ve become very disillusioned about getting some kind of original band going…and I may very well just do like so many other people…just try and write/record on my own and put out stuff that way, which is certainly an option, but I’ve looked and looked for people who might want to get involved in a more band project approach to writing/recording and some gigging…and it’s been pretty dead. Which kinda sucks as I have this huge studio I built a few years ago, which I really didn’t need for my own solo purposes…but I don’t regret building it, I would just like to see it used more for some band projects, not just me doing my own thing. Most of the older guys around here are happy to stick to what they were playing back in their youth…I guess reliving the past and not having to work as hard on anything new. I’m in that older group that would still prefer to work on something original…so it’s the solo thing if I can’t find people…because the young guys who want originals, would rather do originals with guys their age.

I’ve been in bands all over the US, and played in cities all over the US. What I’ve observed everywhere I’ve been is: Original music and/or avant garde bands require lots of young people willing to hear original music. Any other situation….either play the hits or go hungry. It takes a lot of work to get a band up and running, and grow a following. Most people over 30 want to be compensated for that time. IOW, they are going to play what pays. IOW, the hits. It’s usually only young people with no one depending on them that will risk their time with something different. As far as audiences go, by the time you’re 30 nostalgia has already started to settle in.

Another aspect may involve playing same/similar instruments, using same equipment, etc. Carries to: ‘composing with same bunch of notes and scales’… and also emotions/musings/subjects. Everything entrains us, and since ‘there’s nothing new under the sun’… There is also something about ‘pleasant progressions’ and how true randomness in sound (though not nececssarily vision) usually bores, confounds, upsets (after all, who jams or grooves to white-noise?) “What makes music sound ‘good’? and other research, from Dr. Dmitri Tymoczkoyoutube presentation on the geometry of music: “Random paint splashed on a canvas is much less appalling than random notes plunked down on a piano.”

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/why-is-it-so-difficult-to-start-up-a-unique-band.2644825


Geometry of Music / Geometry of Consonants by Dr Dmitri Tymoczko of Princeton University

What makes music sound “good”? What sorts of properties of the musical stimulus cause us to perceive music as ordered, non-random, enjoyable.

In my talk, I will explain how to translate basic concepts of music theory into the language of contemporary geometry. I will show that musicians commonly abstract away from five types of musical transformations, the “OPTIC transformations,” to form equivalence classes of musical objects. Examples include “chord,” “chord type,” “chord progression,” “voice leading,” and “pitch class.” These equivalence classes can be represented as points in a family of singular quotient spaces, or orbifolds: for example, two-note chords live on a Mobius strip whose boundary acts like a mirror, while four-note chord-types live on a cone over the real projective plane. Understanding the structure of these spaces can help us to understand general constraints on musical style, as well as specific pieces. The talk will be accessible to non-musicians, and will exploit interactive 3D computer models that allow us to see and hear music simultaneously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnvynOyZI-Q

It’s an interesting model, a step in the right direction, but it’s really too crude to get at the heart of music. Equating all voicings of a C major triad when they have profoundly different emotional effects…not ideal. C E G, E G C, G C E, all trigger different feelings. (Not to mention open voicings, C G E, G E C and E C G!) Even modding out by the octave is questionable – register matters! What we really need is a TIMBRAL approach to music analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgVt2kQxTzU

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BELOW: Circle of Fifths (from musical theorist David Heinichen in 1711) is a model of the 24 keys in western music.

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BELOW: Modern Circle of Fifths (without a-minor between C-maj and G-maj)

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BELOW: Table of the relations of keys

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Consonance – blending of smoothness, pleasing

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Cohn’s Tonnetz – designed to represent ‘acoustic proximity’ also represents ‘voice leading proximity’ — the audible “nearness” of chords.

Tone of life
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Tone of life

Kabbalah Tree of Life

Kabbalah tree of life

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Modulo, reflection, rotation

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO4mYeBMf84

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Musical tension, due to notes moving from outside the chord in.

https://madmusicalscience.com

Kinds and Timings of Dissonance

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PDF “Geometry of Music” 469 pages
https://archive.org/details/OxfordStudiesInMusicTheoryDmitriTymoczkoAGeometryOfMusicHarmonyAndCounterpointIn

https://music.princeton.edu/people/dmitri-tymoczko/

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Transcript

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgVt2kQxTzU

Transcript – click to reveal

0:08
thank you okay thank you very much for inviting me
0:15
and thank you for that kind introduction I'm going to share my screen and
0:21
um and start going okay can everyone see that
0:26
and and you heard that okay so my talk today is called
0:31
visualizing musical structure the problem is that musical knowledge is
0:36
often tacit and intuitive so musicians learn their way around complex spaces of
0:42
musical possibility without being able to articulate that understanding in words so one task for music theory is to
0:49
make this intuitive knowledge explicit and one way we do this is by drawing
0:54
maps that clarify the structure of the spaces that musicians work in as we will
1:00
see these Maps can have Rich mathematical structure so one famous example of a map was drawn by John
1:07
Coltrane in about 1967 it's visually very striking I'm not actually going to
1:13
talk about it at all today so I'd like to you to put it out of your mind but I just bring it up as an example of a
1:20
tremendous you know a world historically great musician who was trying to use
1:26
some kind of visual representation to understand um musical possibilities
1:33
so my doc is going to have four parts the first part we'll talk about the early history of musical visualization
1:39
from about 1700 to about two thousand then I will talk about a period of
1:45
consolidation where we developed comprehensive models of musical structure
1:51
and then we'll talk about a third period that focused on simplifying these models and extracting actionable musical
1:58
information from them and finally I'll give a summary of where we are now
2:03
okay so we'll start with the history of musical visualization I think the
2:09
earliest um ma visual model of musical structure that that I still find comprehensible
2:16
and useful is the circle of fifths which was first proposed by the theorist David Heineken in 1711 the circle of fifths is
2:25
a model of the 24 keys in western music so each of these pie slices here
2:30
represents a key Cedar is German for C major a mall is a minor then we have G
2:37
major E minor and so on around in a circle coming back to C and you will
2:43
notice if you're a musician that the keys here are placed in a different way
2:48
from how we would now place them Heineken has put a minor between C major
2:53
and G major which is not how it this figure appears in contemporary textbooks
2:59
I don't want to talk about that right now though we will come back to it instead I want to talk about some general features of this model the first
3:06
is that locations or points represent complex musical objects in this case they represent musical Keys
3:14
we can model these Keys as scales or collections of seven notes so we can say
3:20
that each point on this graph represents a collection of seven notes
3:25
the circle represents a kind of musical proximity and here it actually represents a two-fold proximity on the
3:32
one hand there's a logical or physical proximity if we move from C major to G major which are adjacent major keys on
3:40
the graph this requires just changing one note uh by one semitone so if you're
3:45
playing a C major scale on the piano and you want to make it into a G Major scale all you have to do is make the minimal
3:52
possible change on the piano so that's a kind of physical or logical proximity
3:57
what's interesting is that the circle off also represents a kind of musical or
4:03
cultural proximity because classical Western musicians often take short
4:09
distance motions on this space so what's exciting here is that this figure can
4:14
maybe explain something about cultural practice by way of a kind of pre-existing logical or geometrical
4:21
structure I'm going to call a model of this kind of voice leading model and the these are mostly what I'll focus on
4:27
today a voice leading for me is a mapping between one collection of notes
4:33
and another and along with a set of paths between them okay so turn the c
4:38
major scale into the G Major scale by raising the note F to F sharp turn the c
4:44
major chord into the C minor chord by lowering the note E to E flat map the c
4:49
major chord to Itself by moving C up to e e up to G and G up to C these are all voice leadings mathematically you can
4:56
think of a chord as being a set of points on the circle and a voice leading as a set of paths on the circle that
5:02
connects the chord at each of its endpoints so this is mostly the kind of
5:07
model that I'm going to be talking about today all right our next geometrical model uh
5:13
was devised about 25 years later by the musician David Kellner it's also a
5:19
representation of the key structure in western music it's also a circle of fifths but here the major and minor keys
5:26
are arranged in the modern format so we have major keys in this uh and minor
5:32
keys in a concentric Circle A and C A minor and C major occupy the same
5:38
angular position and share a key signature which is shown up here so this version of the circle of fifths is the
5:45
modern one that you can find in contemporary textbooks almost 300 years later
5:50
now interestingly there's a third model of key space that was devised a little less than a hundred years later by one
5:57
of my favorite historical theorists Godfrey Weber who was just a very perceptive musician and and really had a
6:05
lot of sort of great things to say about um many many different topics so this is
6:11
his table of the relationship of keys and if you look at it the circle of fifths is vertical here so these capital
6:18
letters are major Keys arranged as fifths and this figure is a Taurus
6:24
because this F sharp major here and this g flat major there are the same on a
6:29
piano keyboard if you take two adjacent strips you have the Kelner circle of fifths here are the minor Keys here are
6:36
the major keys so he's embedded the circular structure of the traditional
6:42
circle of fifths in a toroidal way he's added to the circle of fifths uh an
6:49
extra dimension of possibility which relates minor thirds so from C major here one can move to a minor and also C
6:56
minor why did he do that he did that because culturally in the cultural practice of music making composers often
7:04
do move from C major to C minor and this is on the circle of fifths this is a
7:10
fairly um this is a fairly dramatic move so here's a place where
7:17
the intrinsic geometry seems to diverge from the actual musical practice since
7:22
Faber was a very practical guy he just said well we're going to change the geometry so we're going to come back to
7:28
this this is also a Taurus because you can return to your starting point by moving either
7:33
horizontally or vertically or let's just say it appears to be a Taurus we're going to return to that question now
7:40
moving backwards in time there's another model that's fundamentally important that was derived by the great
7:47
mathematician Leonard Euler in 1739 he called this the net of tones the tone
7:54
net we usually in English we call it the tone Mets using its German form this is
7:59
a totally different model from the others I've shown you because here points represent notes so this F here
8:06
represents the note F in the other models points represented configurations of notes complex musical objects here
8:14
points are individual notes and chords are represented by shapes so if we wanted to represent the F major chord f
8:22
a c we would need to do that with a triangle so an Euler's tone Nets fifths
8:28
are represented by this diagonal line here we have fcgd a e h which is German
8:34
for b f sharp C sharp G sharp D sharp and B which is German for B flat
8:41
okay we have minor thirds in this direction g e c sharp d b g sharp and
8:49
then we have major thirds in this direction so here's a more modern representation of the tone that's where
8:55
I've regularized the three axes we have perfect fifths on the horizontal Dimension we have major thirds on this
9:02
diagonal minor thirds on this diagonal and the simplicial structure here is
9:08
caused by the fact that minor thirds can be built out of major thirds and perfect fits so if you want to go a minor third
9:15
up from a to c we can go down a major third and up a perfect fifth okay so in
9:21
some way you only need two of the axes here which is why we have this this triangular simplicial structure now this
9:29
is a a very different model from the earlier models first because points represent notes rather than full chords
9:36
and second because the kind of proximity that's being modeled here is an acoustic
9:41
proximity not voice leading proximity so F and C are adjacent here not because
9:47
they're near each other on the piano but because they make a consonance
9:53
they sound pleasing or they sound attractive together
9:58
they are represented by frequency ratios if we just look at the fundamental frequency of the vibrating string the
10:04
frequency ratio is very simple it's three over two and that corresponds with this felt perception of blending or
10:11
smoothness that musicians call consonants so this is what Euler was trying to model in the same way the
10:17
major third foreign is also very consonant
10:24
um and and so uh this figure is mostly used when we're dealing with problems of
10:31
tuning and intonation essentially the job of devising a scale or a musical uh
10:38
system is to find a collection of notes that are related to each other by nice
10:43
consonant intervals and what this means is taking a selection from the Infinite
10:49
Space uh represented by Euler's complete lattice so here's a selection that
10:55
contains all 12 notes you can play on the piano keyboard here are the frequency ratios that correspond to that
11:01
selection and the trick here is that we want to make this periodic so we want to
11:06
say that the notes at the top are equivalent to the notes on the bottom the notes at the left are equivalent to the notes of the right and there's
11:12
basically no way to do this while also having all the adjacent notes have the
11:19
desired simple frequency ratio ratio is that you want so all of these lines
11:24
represent deviations from those perfect intervals these Capital these large numbers
11:31
represent frequency ratios that arise from perfect intervals multiplying by three over two or dividing by three over
11:38
two in this direction multiplying by five over four in this direction here you can see that this note cannot be
11:44
tuned so that it's a perfect fifth under this note and we have all sorts of deviations now we adjust every interval
11:53
so that it's equally imperfect and this gives us very good perfect fifths on the
11:59
horizontal axis and noticeably not so great uh major thirds here but we're
12:05
used to it one interesting result from all these models is that even the seven note diatonic scale even the white notes
12:13
cannot be tuned perfectly so here I have the I've built the scale corresponding
12:20
to that little set segment of Euler's lattice and you'll hear that the D minor
12:25
chord is not perfect it's a little wobbly so let me play that
12:36
that's the wobbly one not terrible
12:47
but but it caused a lot of consternation back in the day and there's basically no
12:53
principled way to fix that you're always going to get what's called a wolf interval so this is the kind of problem
12:59
that Euler set out to solve with his tone in that and you know just as a
13:05
little mathematical aside you can compare this kind of structure to what is called field extensions in
13:10
mathematics a field extension is a way of supplementing the rational numbers or
13:16
the numbers in some field with an irrational so the rational numbers are represented by this hollow Q here and we
13:23
can extend the rational numbers by adding the single irrational the square root of two and we create a new and
13:31
bigger field of numbers that contains every rational number a and then also
13:36
um every product of a rational number with the square root of two what's going
13:42
on here in tuning theory is something very similar the octave is represented by a rational number the other perfect
13:48
intervals are irrational numbers and um instead of using rational
13:54
coefficients we use integer coefficients so basically we have like a little lattice here where you can go in the
14:01
rational direction or in the direction of the irrational corresponding to the perfect fifth or the major third what's
14:08
interesting about this kind of space is that it's not a continuous space so you can go a large number of fifths outward
14:16
on the lattice and end up perceptually very close from where you started and the same is true for the major third so
14:23
the trick is to try to find a compact region of the space anyway I suspect that that Euler was well aware of the
14:30
mathematical analogies here between and how you're basically manipulating your rational numbers
14:36
we're now going to Leap Forward 200 years to the next step in our story which Believe It or Not took place in
14:43
1996. my colleague Rick Cohn who's a very very Innovative and perceptive
14:49
music theorist he noticed that Euler's graph could be used not just to
14:55
represent Acoustics but that it could also be used to model voice leading
15:00
proximity and what he noticed is that if you take little steps on
15:07
Euler's tone Nets between triangles which represent major or minor chords these little steps
15:14
move one note by a small amount either one or two semitones
15:27
so this thing that was designed to represent acoustic proximity also
15:33
represents voice leading proximity or The Nearness of chords if you're playing them on an
15:39
instrument like a piano and this was quite an amazing and revolutionary Discovery
15:46
um and it inaugurated a huge burst of Music theoretical activity so Cohn
15:52
published this in 1996 within two years uh you had douthit and Steinbach
15:58
representing you know devising other graphical representations of the relations among different chords here is
16:04
Ed Goins 1998 attempt to expand the tone Nets to a new
16:10
um in a new direction to include sevenths here's a graph that I made
16:15
representing voice leading relations among scales so there's Oodles of these graphs it's a little cottage industry
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where everyone could make a little lattice of their favorite musical objects and what they've left us with
16:27
there's a wildly heterogeneous set of models each tailored to a specific musical circumstance and all of them
16:33
looking completely different from all the others so the question is could we bring any
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order to this situation and that brings me to my second the second part of my
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talk where I'm going to be talking about the development of comprehensive models of musical structure and the attempt to
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unify all of these different models into a single um into a simulated structure
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I'm not going to model I'm not going to monitor the chat but if anyone maybe uh Monday if you're moderating if you see a
17:05
question in chat that needs to happen now you can you have permission to interrupt but otherwise I'm going to
17:11
plow forward and we'll deal with the chat afterwards okay okay so this part of the story starts
17:18
with Cliff calendar uh my friend and collaborator in 2002 he described a
17:24
two-dimensional continuous space that represented all possible three-note chord types so this is a more abstract
17:31
graph than the ones we looked at because a point here doesn't represent a specific chord like C major or D major
17:38
it represents every major chord it's a little more abstract and actually it's
17:43
it's even more abstract than that this point here represents major or minor chords those are those are upside down
17:51
versions of each other so they can sort of be thought of as the same thing nevertheless it is completely
17:58
comprehensive in the sense that any three notes you can play not just three notes on the piano but even three notes
18:04
that that fall between the cracks of the piano uh occupies some point on this
18:10
graph so it is it is truly that it's the set of configurations of three notes on
18:17
the circle modulo reflection and rotation if you want if you want the mathematical name for it but musically
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it's all the possible chords that you can possibly think of and so this really
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attracted a lot of attention because it had the kind of generality that people felt uh should be part of our discourse
18:37
okay within a year Rick Cohn who's the one who noticed the the fact about the tone Nets he came up with a a
18:44
tetrahedral model of four note chord types which is shown here Ian Quinn
18:50
um Ian Quinn this is very funny he worked he didn't work with computer Graphics he worked with construction
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paper and so here is his model of four note card types this actually I've had
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these on my desk for about 20 years and you can see they're a little worse for the wear but but here are his model
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um Ian started making really important connections to mathematics uh he he
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noticed that there's some kind of quotient operation here he noticed that it's really important to include
19:19
multiceps in these graphs multi-sets are chords that have duplicate notes like cceg and traditionally music theorists
19:27
have ignored those but Ian realized that that they play a crucial part of the story he didn't publish anything during
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this period but he was talking to all of these people and really contributing to this investigation other important
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people here include no melkies the uh well-known math professor at Harvard and Rachel Hall a math professor here at St
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Joseph's in Philadelphia and these people are both great musicians as well as excellent
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mathematicians I would say there were three main obstacles to generalizing the
20:02
coming up with a generalized framework for musical geometry one was purely Musical and involved understanding the
20:09
underlying musical objects of study so this involved defining the notion of voice leading in a rigorous way for both
20:17
chords and chord types another was learning to a or those musical assumptions and
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Concepts like cardinality equivalents that give rise to pathological geometries I talked about how musicians
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habitually did not distinguish cceg from ceg and turns out if you if you group
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those together you end up creating a giant geometrical mess so learning not
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to group those together was very difficult because it sort of went against the grain of a lot of music theoretical training
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uh another challenge was trying to find analogs to these graphs we've looked at
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that represented chords in their particular particularity rather than chord types so all these recent models
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were chord types but but really we'd like to have all the different chords in
21:06
in different locations finally there was a purely geometrical challenge of
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understanding the geometry that resulted here what do paths mean what's the significance of the
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duplicates that seem to inevitably appear on the boundaries of these spaces how do we deal with singularities that
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act like mirrors now none of this is really hard mathematically the real challenge here was getting these two
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totally different languages the language of music and the language of math to speak to each other productively okay so
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there is this period of success um uh there's a paper I wrote called
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scale Theory serial Theory and voice leading where I think I first really Define voice leadings in a very in in
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what I would think of as the most fruitful modern way this was published later but written before there are two
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papers in science one I wrote called the geometry of musical chords one I wrote with uh Cliff calendar and Ian Quinn
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called generalized voice leading spaces and then I wrote this all down in my book my first book a geometry of Music
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which kind of is a comprehensive introduction to this new way of thinking and the framework here is is really
22:16
pretty simple we start by situating a chord with endnotes in n-dimensional
22:22
Cartesian space so if our chord has two notes we can put these two Notes on The X and Y axis here so a point in this
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two-dimensional space represents two notes happening at the same time one x
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axis Note One Y axis note if we want three note chords we need three dimensions here I have trumpet sax and
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trombone on the X Y and Z axes respectively so we start with euclidean
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space and a point representing you know a note on each axis if you look at the
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space that results it's periodic and has the structure of a piece of wallpaper so
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over here is a representation of um of a piece of wallpaper with um
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these different tiles where horizontally and vertically adjacent tiles are upside
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down relative to each other over here I wrote out every you know big collection
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of two note chords uh in a kind of obsessive way and this space of two note
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chords actually has the same abstract structure here it's got these four quadrants and quadrants are upside down
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relative to their horizontal and vertical neighbors okay uh then what we
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do is we glue together points in this space that are equivalent according to Conventional musical terminology or
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symmetries and what this amounts to doing is representing music on a single tile of wallpaper rather than
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inefficiently using multiple tiles so in my book I have the example of an ant
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that is walking across the wallpaper and we can represent the ant's trajectory on
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a single tile okay and so what happens here is quite interesting as the ant crosses Tiles at Point Alpha here it
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moves off the lower at the lower left edge of the tile and
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it reappears on the upper right edge of the tile right because this is the point
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that is analogous to this point over here and what that means is that this space has the structure of a Mobius
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strip its left Edge is glued to the right Edge upside down that disappearing
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off the lower left and reappearing off the upper on the upper right is the Hallmark of a kind of of a Mobius strip
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what happens over here a beta is even more interesting because as the ant crosses tiles here instead of
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reappearing on the opposite Edge it actually appears to bounce off okay so
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it looks like Point beta this upper boundary has the structure of a mirror and that means that this is not a Mobius
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strip it's actually something more complicated because it's got singular points in it that act like mirrors I
25:02
just want to remind you that the logic here is in fact the musical logic of two note chords so so the simple wallpaper
25:10
example is showing you the different kinds of singularities we actually confront in news
25:15
okay so these spaces are are what's called quotient spaces or orbitals in
25:21
these spaces points represent objects like chords paths represent Voice leadings or mappings between the chords
25:28
and Boundary points can be associated with specific musical Transformations so
25:35
uh in this case the um the horizontal boundary at the top
25:40
and bottom can be associated with what musicians call Voice exchanges while the left and right boundaries can be
25:47
associated with what musicians call transposition along the chord so I'm going to come back to that later in the
25:53
talk so the cool thing is in two Dimensions we can actually just write this thing
25:59
down we can come up with a an interactive model that contains all possible two note chords you can go to
26:06
my website madmusical science.com mobius.html you can click on it
26:19
and kind of travel around in this space [Music]
26:24
okay foreign
26:31
as we saw the Mobius strip has the structure sorry this space has the
26:38
structure of a Mobius strip which means that if you disappear off the left Edge you reappear on the
26:44
right but lower is glued higher and vice versa um so let's
26:50
in the same way there are paths in this space that seem to bounce off the upper
26:56
and lower boundaries as if they were mirrors sorry that was not a good one
27:02
I should choose this one
27:07
called voice exchanges they they exchange the two notes of the chord
27:13
Okay now what's cool about this space is there's one of them for every scale so
27:20
if you want to work just with the white notes on the piano keyboard
27:26
you can do that the underlying field of pitches matters much less than you might
27:32
think and if you want something really sort of obscure and weird if you happen
27:37
to be a kind of uh perverse musical mind foreign
27:46
you can create microtonal scales that that involve fractional values here that
27:52
lie between different piano notes so so the underlying geometry is kind of
27:57
completely agnostic about what your scale is now
28:02
in the same way we can get one of these things for a uh for a three note chord
28:08
let me pick that up [Music] um
28:15
so here's the geometry of three note Chords it's a three-dimensional space and any three notes I play on my piano
28:22
[Music] Devon they determine a path in the space
28:30
and you can zoom in you can see the labels of the things you could rotate them and and so on and
28:37
so here we have a real tangible model of all possible three note musical chords
28:43
okay so this was an a kind of success this
28:49
gave us a uh it subsumed and unified all these pre-existing models of voice
28:55
leading structure the circle of fifths the tone that's considered as a voice leading space
29:00
these various models of chord types which can be viewed as projections of the spaces we were looking at and many
29:06
others it also revealed some deep principles that underlie musical
29:11
practice I'm trying to get the participant screen out of my way here um
29:17
including the importance of symmetry and near symmetry so I was very proud of
29:23
being part of this work along with so many others and I really felt that that we reached a plateau of new
29:29
understanding of music uh and it also showed us not just the importance of symmetry in general but it
29:36
highlighted a particular set of symmetries that really are important throughout music on the other hand
29:41
there's lots of problems here um the chief among them being that musical geometries are generally High
29:48
dimensional right you need one dimension for every note in your chord so two Dimensions two note cards you can do
29:54
great three note chords you can sort of do with computer Graphics but once we start getting into four note chords five
30:00
note chords seven note scales which live in a seven dimensional space that becomes pretty hard to visualize and
30:07
understand and remember the whole point of this Enterprise is to try to provide simple and intuitive pictures that
30:13
musicians can use I would say because of this complexity the geometry did not obviously suggest novel musical
30:20
directions and in fact some people rightly felt that there's something a little bit tautologist here the the
30:27
geometry said okay chords near each other on the piano are near each other in some higher dimensional space in some
30:34
sense it just translated what we already knew from the piano into this alternative and equivalent High
30:40
dimensional form and and so while I was proud of all this work and super exciting I recognized that for Outsiders
30:48
especially but even for me as an Insider these structures were a little bit too
30:54
unwieldy to be able to manipulate intuitively when you're dealing with a
31:00
even a three-dimensional singular geometry just sort of drawing pictures and looking at lines is not going to
31:06
lead to Musical I understand so that leads to part three of my talk which involves the attempt to simplify these
31:14
models and extract from them actionable musical information this is all material that's coming out in a second book
31:20
that's in production with Oxford University press the general approach here is to avoid representing the higher
31:27
dimensional spaces and all that complexity and to look for more abstract or symbolic alternative representations
31:34
and here the inspiration comes from topology which tries to disregard
31:40
geometrical detail in favor of a much more General conception of spatial
31:45
structure this is a world in which the donut and the coffee cup are the same shape so so we're going to be looking
31:51
for a musical analog of that kind of way of thinking
31:56
more specifically we're going to look at one type of chord at a time not show all
32:02
possible chords but just the major Triads we can if we want you know look at a
32:07
handful of chords there's no problem looking at two at once but but instead of looking at everything we're also
32:13
going to eliminate some of the Transformations linking chords and in particular we're going to link The Voice
32:18
exchanges that just sort of inertly swap two notes in accord
32:24
um okay and the the reason for doing this is that it really simplifies the picture
32:30
you end up with and here we're following in the footsteps of the enormously perceptive and enormously problematic
32:37
music theorist Heinrich Schenker Heinrich Schenker was a flat out racist who had a lot of
32:44
um terrible ideas about music but also had some deep insights into musical structure and one of his Str insights
32:51
was that these voice exchanges can be considered decorative uh it turns out
32:56
mathematically they're they're what's called a normal subgroup and that means we can potion out of that out by them
33:02
without without problems okay so the upshot is where we end up if we do all
33:07
this work we end up with a set of two-dimensional models that show the basic voice leading capabilities of any
33:13
chord in any scale these models can be extended so that they cover multiple
33:19
chords and they focus our attention on particular relationships that can be otherwise very hard to see and this is
33:26
really the dream of musical visualization I believe it leads to actual new musical ideas and techniques
33:34
one of the most interesting features of these representations is their universality you have the same graph for
33:41
chord and scale regardless of their internal structure the only thing that matters is the size of the chord and the
33:48
size of the scale so that's really cool that shows that that is a manifestation
33:53
of this topological perspective where little differences of musical structure don't really matter what really matters
33:59
is you know how many notes you're dealing with at both the chord level and the scale level so let me show you where
34:07
these things come from here's the Mobius strip we looked at earlier that represents all possible two note chords
34:13
chords that sound the same the major thirds
34:19
these are all found on horizontal lines a pair of horizontal lines whose left
34:25
Edge is glued to their right edges but with a Twist so here's what that gluing
34:30
looks like I've taken this dotted line you can follow it around and glue it here and you travel around the solid
34:37
line glues you there so it's pretty clear that this structure
34:43
here can be rationalized and regularized as this
34:48
um spiral diagram here here so where we're going to replace the full Mobius
34:53
strip with this two-dimensional spiral diagram that shows the voice leading
34:59
relations of all possible major thirds found in the chromatic scale once again you can go to the to my website you can
35:07
find these things you can plug in let's say show me c and e in the 12 note
35:12
chromatic scale press draw here's my graph foreign
35:21
and you can play around with the space and and and and just explore it and it's
35:27
much simpler than the full Mobius strip okay with three note chords the miracle
35:34
is basically we just do the same thing here's that three-dimensional space I was showing you earlier the major chords
35:41
live on these three line segments here the top is glued to the bottom with a 120 degree rotation that gives you a
35:49
triple spiral here where um each time you go around a loop you go
35:54
outward by one spiral Okay so we've added a dimension to our chord but we're
36:00
still dealing with a two-dimensional representation and that's true no matter how many notes
36:06
you use here's the circle of fifths we started with this is the Kellner Circle right c g d a e are all next to each
36:14
other here is the spiral diagram representing seven note scales in a 12
36:20
note chromatic collection and you'll see the circle of fifths is right here c g d
36:25
a e and again if you want to you can go to my website
36:33
there we just added the sharp to go from C major to G major foreign
36:41
and you can play around with this structure so this thing is actually a
36:46
line that winds through a seven dimensional orbifold but it's no more complex than than the two-dimensional
36:54
representation that represents two note chords what's really cool is I did not I did not put anything in here I just told
37:00
my computer literature of a major scale that you can play on the piano and this
37:07
circle of fifths Arrangement that the earlier theorists sort of built in by hand it just falls out automatically
37:14
it's it's just a consequence of the geometry um um Okay so
37:21
chord space of every size has one circular Dimension when we are ignoring voice exchanges it turns out the other
37:27
dimensions don't matter very much they're just a big euclidean ball with a trivial homotopic group and homotopia
37:34
classes are what's really important here so we can use these models to understand
37:40
a huge range of musical practices let me just give you two examples this here is
37:46
the uh is the model of two note chords two note thirds diatonic thirds in the
37:53
white note scale so uh notes with one white notes with one white note between them as well as their upside down forms
38:01
if we just toodle around this space foreign [Music]
38:15
we start making something that sounds kind of like classical music [Music]
38:24
and I believe that a lot of classical syntax comes from this two-dimensional
38:30
geometry we tend to think of classical music as built around three note objects
38:35
that we call Triads but I believe that there's a whole hidden layer of musical
38:40
thinking that actually exploits this two-dimensional geometry and I talk about this in this new book I'm I've
38:46
just finished perhaps even more surprisingly is if we take the space that represents major
38:53
chords that you can play on the piano so major chords in chromatic space and just
38:59
try sort of noodling clockwise if we just move clockwise here
39:09
we start to find all the progressions of classic rock so that what I just played
39:14
is Neil Young's helpless along with a zillion other songs
39:23
that's Sympathy for the Devil and a zillion other songs
39:29
that's Pictures of Matchstick man
39:35
sorry that's eight days a week
39:43
that's the air near my fingers by The White Stripes ah and then
39:49
this
39:55
is Hey Joe made famous by Jimi Hendrix so I believe that CLA that rock
40:02
musicians have internalized the structure of possibilities that's shown by this
40:09
diagram so when they are intuitively composing they are navigating a
40:16
possibility space that is really well captured by this simple diagram a lot of
40:22
these progressions are not progressions that are allowable under
40:27
um uh traditional the rules of traditional Western tonal syntax but they're incredibly natural they involve
40:34
ways of combining simple descending Melodies with harmonies that sound
40:39
similar and are closely related and so you can build a kind of grammar of
40:44
intuitive Rock practice out of this geometrical model and you really start
40:51
to understand the structure common to a lot of these
40:56
progressions and even the relations among particular songs so that's a good example those so we have one space that
41:03
we can use to understand classical music another space that we can use it to understand rock music in both cases a
41:09
certain kind of clockwise motion is is important because it represents descending Melodies which are kind of
41:15
musical Norm so that's something we can do with this space that actually increases our understanding we can also
41:22
solve some more complicated theoretical questions so Rick Cohn says three note chords have a toroidal geometry I say
41:29
they have an annular uh geometry which one of us is right
41:36
well it turns out that if you if you look at things very carefully one of the
41:41
loops on the tone Nets is musically inert so so cones tone Nets which seems
41:48
on the surface to be a Taurus actually um has a secretly amular structure
41:53
because if you go along these solid line here you actually end up exactly where
41:59
you started and what that means is that that direction is what's called a
42:04
contractable loop so here we start in C major and if we just so here we have
42:09
these notes c e g in exactly these positions and if we just go in a loop
42:16
like this we end up with those notes exactly in the same position so we haven't done anything
42:22
by contrast if we take this Loop
42:28
we have moved every note up by one so this C used to be down here and it's
42:34
moved up by one that Loop actually has a function so that's why of one way of
42:40
adjudicating between the Taurus model and the spiral model it turns out that
42:45
some of these paths on the Taurus are inert and when you eliminate the inert paths you end up with my spiral
42:51
something very similar can be said for the Taurus that Weber used to represent
42:56
keys in western music remember Heineken Kelner and I all say that the geometry here has a annular structure a circular
43:04
structure it's not a Taurus who's right well once again it turns out that one of the loops on Weber's Taurus
43:11
is actually musically inert if you if you take these solid lines here you
43:16
actually end up mapping C to C double sharp which is otherwise known as D and
43:21
that's a real genuine change if you follow the dotted lines you engage in
43:26
this series of Transformations here you map C right back to where it started this Loop doesn't do anything it's
43:33
homotopically equivalent to the point it's trivial it's not musically meaningful the underlying structure here
43:40
is not the structure of a Taurus it's the structure of the Spiral Kelner and Heineken right here however you don't
43:48
want to stop there because Weber actually made an important point he said that a minor is close to both a major
43:54
and C major and that's why he abandoned the spiral and he's certainly correct
43:59
musically that a minor is perceived as being close to these two other Keys these keys are not near each other on
44:07
the circular diagram so so here it's not enough to say well you know topology shows that you're wrong you kind of have
44:14
to go one step farther and and come up with a way of representing the
44:19
relationship that that labor was concerned with and it turns out that if we if we make a
44:26
spiral diagram um that contains that more accurately
44:31
represents minor Keys we can find out what's going on the the issue here is that every minor key is actually
44:37
represented by three different scales three different seven note collections this is a slightly more abstract version
44:44
of my spiral diagrams that that collapses every spiral to a circle which you can do in some circumstances and it
44:51
turns out that the D Minor T is related by three D Minor scales there's what we
44:57
call natural minor harmonic minor and melodic minor these are all different objects and here I've connected the
45:05
objects that represent a single Key by dotted lines here I've made them into a
45:11
series of concentric circular arcs and here I've abstracted this picture so I
45:18
now have two arcs the upshot is when you think about how this minor key is
45:23
represented by scales you realize it's actually represented by multiple scales
45:29
and and a minor key is a spatially extended object so it's not that the
45:35
keys have a toroidal geometry it's that it's wrong to try to localize a minor
45:41
key in a single point and here you can see the a minor scale stretches so that
45:46
it's kind of close to C and kind of close to a and I think that's the answer
45:52
to Weber's problem um and and this is an example of the kind of deep and subtle modeling that we
45:59
can do once we're thinking rigorously about musical geometry I'm just going to show you this picture because it's cool
46:06
this is a two-dimensional model of the space of chord types these are the kinds
46:11
of things that we started with started section two with the cliff calendar was making the tetrahedron that Rick Cohn
46:18
was making we can represent their musical content with simple polygonal
46:24
graphs so this Square represents Rick cone's tetrahedron this Pentagon
46:30
represents the four-dimensional space that that models all possible types of
46:37
five note chord these are higher dimensional highly singular super
46:43
complicated geometries uh it's kind of hopeless even with the four note tetrahedron to really understand its
46:50
musical content but we can break it down to this more topological representation
46:55
of its underlying musical content and actually start to understand what's going on with these spaces again you can
47:02
go to my website and play with these things so what's cool is we are now in the position where we can evaluate models
47:08
that are more than 300 years old we can make choices between the circle of fifths and the Taurus of keys we have a
47:16
family of very similar two-dimensional diagrams that represent contrapuntal relations among a very wide range of
47:21
chords and scales and these are the sorts of simple surveable maps that musicians can actually use
47:28
there's no mysticism here whatsoever we're just doing math there's a little bit of a joke because this is a model
47:34
you can interact with on my website and it actually looks a little bit like an occult diagram that represents the
47:40
Philosopher's Stone so so I know mysticism diagram is is is actually
47:46
an ancient occult symbol but it actually has sort of strict musical content there
47:52
so now I wanna I wanna end this slightly extended talk by explaining where we are now what does it
48:00
all mean okay so what is the take-home message from all this geometry what can
48:05
it actually teach a musician and the answer is
48:13
wait for it [Music]
48:23
the answer is that music has one more hierarchical level than we think
48:28
a huge amount of implicit musical knowledge involves moving along
48:34
collections so we're familiar with this in the case of scales we have doe a deer
48:41
where we take a pattern and move it along the scale
48:46
but it turns out that we can do this with any collection okay and the idea of
48:53
motion along a hierarchically nested set of collections is really intrinsic to
48:58
the fundamental geometry of music and the basic message of that geometry is that chords act like little scales so
49:05
just as we can do where we kind of take a similar pattern
49:11
and move it along a scale we can also do that along a chord
49:20
or we can really do this kind of motion with any collection okay so here is the
49:29
picture that that uh I think you end up with here we have a nested set of
49:36
musical collections at the top here we have the c major chord
49:42
and if you move systematically left and right you move along this collection here's up
49:48
here's down here's up two down one
49:55
okay so yeah that's motion at this level this guy is then embedded in this guy
50:04
where you have the same set of possibilities here's up two down one
50:09
here's up here's down okay and this guy is embedded inside the
50:16
chromatic scale here's up two down one
50:26
so in each case you have the same set of processes available at these multiple
50:32
hierarchical levels patterns up here are most naturally expressed in terms of numbers that refer to these guys
50:39
sequentially so up two down one plus two minus one is basically most naturally
50:45
represented by operations at what I call input scale degrees the this the chord can be thought of as
50:52
a little mapping that turns input degrees into output degrees these output degrees then become the input degrees of
50:59
this next collection where you have a similar set of models here so we have things like translation and reflection
51:06
available at input degrees at multiple levels okay and this is actually a
51:12
computer architecture what I'm saying here is that a musical collection is a recursive object that can be nested
51:19
inside itself so almost every computer representation of musical objects if it
51:25
works like this at all it Maps input degrees directly into notes we can hear
51:31
I'm saying that's actually not how Music Works the way Music Works is every collection Maps input degrees into
51:37
output degrees that then get mapped into the input degrees of the next level and
51:42
so you can Nest collections inside each other and I've actually built a little python nestable scale object that allows
51:49
you to do this and what that means is you can have all these different processes which might be structurally
51:54
similar happening at the same level uh simultaneously and that's where you
52:00
start to get things that sound like music so a little terminology I call this thing the intrinsic scale it is the
52:07
scale formed out of a chord's own notes I call this thing the extrinsic scale
52:13
which is the scale form like it's the scale that contains our scale that's what we normally think of as a scale the
52:20
big idea here is that every chord is its own little intrinsic scale my dream is to be able to think
52:27
musically using arbitrary hierarchies of arbitrary collections to sit down at the piano choose some chord I've never
52:33
played before embedded in some five note scale I've never played before and start to move fluently within that new musical
52:40
space it's really hard to do but it's not impossible to do Okay so
52:46
every scale defines its own notion of translation which musicians call
52:52
transposition so if we take just the c major Triad and look at these two Notions of
52:58
transposition what do they look like
53:04
so here what we've done is we've taken the c major uh chord and we move it up along the white note scale here that's
53:11
transposition along the extrinsic scale here we move it up along itself
53:21
that's intrinsic transposition and now the thing is these things these two operations get combined sometimes they
53:28
combine to produce a near identity transformation so there are objects on
53:33
this space that are quite close together even though they're not close together in this representation now the spiral
53:40
diagrams I showed you earlier represent the combination of hierarchically nested
53:46
transposition so if you slide along the diagram that's transposition along the the big scale the extrinsic scale and if
53:54
you Loop along the diagram that's transposition along the intrinsic scale so let me just show you that here we go
54:02
so if I um if I slide downward
54:09
okay everybody um
54:16
everybody Moves In Parallel along the scale and meanwhile if I Loop I move along the little chord
54:26
now and what this graph is showing us is proximate combinations of those two so
54:31
it turns out if I if I do slide down here and then counteract that with a loop
54:39
voices those two Transformations counteract each other and the voices don't move by very much and that's the
54:45
key to a lot of musical activity now here I want to say my friend and colleague Jay Hook back in 2003 he
54:53
emphasized the importance of hierarchically nested transposition and he really jump started my interest in
54:59
music theory in this way I now think he really put his finger on the Core lesson of musical
55:04
geometry so I want to make sure I include him in my Pantheon here I'm going to end now with a little lightning
55:10
tour of what we can do with this kind of new way of thinking the first idea is
55:16
that musical objects which we call motives often Move Along Accords intrinsic scale here's an example from
55:22
Louis Armstrong
55:27
okay so Armstrong takes a little motive here
55:33
that's his motive [Music]
55:39
into the E flat major Triad and it moves down along the E flat major Triad what's
55:45
cool though is that the first note doesn't belong to the E flat major Triad at all it actually is a what's called a
55:51
neighbor note that belongs at the level of the scale so here I've represented this with a Network that has two kinds
55:59
of transposition in it and um we can actually represent it on the
56:05
hierarchy in this way I have to change Keys here but these are the harmonic notes at this
56:13
upper level and then here's the neighbor note at a different hierarchical level [Music]
56:20
and that figure moves down
56:26
so the idea that musical objects are constituted by
56:31
hierarchical networks of intervals is a really new and cool idea I've built a
56:37
little calculator that actually allows you to play with these relationships so I've built a Syntax for musical motives
56:47
you can play around with these ideas because it's actually hard to do it with your brain
56:52
a very similar process happens in harmonization so this is kind of normal
56:58
Episcopalian him tune Harmony [Music]
57:03
What's Happening Here is this melody is moving systematically along the scale
57:08
these inner voices are shadowing the melody in parallel along a chord that is
57:14
changing so once again we have a hierarchical network of intervals we can represent the melodic note as moving at
57:20
this hierarchical level it's giving rise to a chord that is then being shadowed
57:26
One Step lower at this chord level and what makes this tricky is that this guy is actually changing
57:34
here's that Beatles song eight days a week I talked about earlier I'm gonna just play it here
57:42
[Music]
57:54
okay so what's going on here is we have a set of chords that can be read as
58:00
always descending
58:07
so we actually end up in a different place from where we started we don't have a Melody but systematically hopping
58:13
back and forth between two notes of the scale
58:19
[Music] foreign the melody then leaps up one
58:25
extra scale so three two three two two
58:30
three four but what happens is the melody ends up
58:36
exactly on the same note that it started even though it's a different scale
58:42
degree at the level of at the top hierarchical level so what we have here is perpetually descending motion at the
58:49
level of the chord that is counteracted by ascending motion at the level of the melody to create
58:56
a kind of psychologically complex repetition if you think about this naively it's
59:02
just repeating repeating repeating but the reason that repetition is interesting is that it's it's actually
59:09
more subtle you have ascent and descent counteracting each other this happens all over music
59:15
and it leads to what I call the quadruple hierarchy where we have voices those are notes you know what
59:22
um what the Beatles are singing moving inside possibly scale like chords that move inside scales that themselves move
59:28
inside a chromatic collection every adjacent layer of this hierarchy is represented by one of those spiral
59:34
diagrams I showed you in part three here's a wonderful example from Beethoven it's the opening of the
59:39
volstein Sonata like eight days a week I see the basic harmonies as perpetually
59:45
descended [Music]
59:53
it's actually kind of a rock progression meanwhile against that the right hand Melody is ascending
1:00:03
foreign [Music]
1:00:08
psychologically complex repetition this creates a kind of gigantic exciting
1:00:14
wedge that is the perfect curtain opener for one of the great pieces of the classical tradition here the primary
1:00:20
notes of the melody are shown in open note heads you'll see them ascending to
1:00:25
the right upward along the chord but then as the music progresses the chord changes shifting downward from one staff
1:00:33
to the next so you'll see the result is a kind of diagonal uh down and right
1:00:38
motion let's listen I think it's pretty clear [Music]
1:00:52
thank you [Music]
1:01:03
all right we can also represent this with my spiral diagrams so here is the motion of the voices inside the chord
1:01:10
and here's the motion of the chords inside the chromatic scale over here
1:01:15
you see large counterclockwise motions which correspond to the ascending pattern and over here you see small
1:01:21
clockwise motions which correspond to the descending path here the spiral motions you see here
1:01:28
recreate exactly the notes that are in the music okay it's not an analogy it's
1:01:34
not a sort of it's it's not just a symbolic representation it's more like a
1:01:40
musical instrument in the in the sense that it really does if you started in the right place you can find the Motions
1:01:46
that that make any desired output so we're going to listen twice first we'll look at the counterclockwise motion over
1:01:52
here uh which is the ascent relative to this uh the ascent relative to the chord
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foreign [Music]
1:02:18
now we can look at the more Placid descending motion on the right [Music]
1:02:33
foreign
1:02:41
and then I have one last example which comes from one of my heroes McCoy Tyner this is a line he plays in his solo uh
1:02:49
on passion dance from The Real McCoy and what happens here is he plays a series of Triads that are changing their
1:02:55
inversion that that means they're moving at the top hierarchical level but they're also moving relative to the
1:03:02
scale so they're moving on the middle hierarchical level and then the scale itself is changing from mixolydian to E
1:03:08
flat minor pentatonic as you as you go so that's another level of motion and
1:03:13
this is all improvised and it goes by super fast so we'll listen to it one time here
1:03:26
and now we'll watch it on a spiral diagram I didn't try to do multiple diagrams here I just do uh the motion of
1:03:32
the chord inside the scale you can look over here on the musical notation you'll see exactly the notes that Tyner plays
1:03:42
[Music] [Applause] [Music]
1:03:47
so here I think the geometry is really starting to help us understand what it
1:03:52
is that musical competence and musical expertise consistent so McCoy Tyner is an
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incredibly uh thoughtful and and intellectual musician
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who is able to internalize these relationships and if you look at his playing carefully he does this not just
1:04:09
with the major chords but with all sorts of chords he he's a really um he's got a great combination of being
1:04:16
a very principled and cerebral player while also having like a real visceral
1:04:21
expressiveness okay so the final picture we end up with is one of meals within Wheels we have voices moving inside
1:04:28
possibly scale like chords that move inside scales that move inside a chromatic aggregate each of these pairs
1:04:36
of levels is represented by a structurally analogous topological diagram here this is a very simple
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organizational strategy that generates music of extraordinary psychological complexity we've seen rock examples
1:04:48
classical examples Jazz examples when you start to think these way in this way maybe those stylistic differences aren't
1:04:55
quite so important it's actually really hard to manage three separate levels of motion along a
1:05:01
collection particularly with unfamiliar chords and scales musicians do this by internalizing uh a set of routines and
1:05:09
habits that are tied to particular collections so if we want to expand Beyond those internalized routines this
1:05:16
is an opportunity for music theory we can make music musical calculators computational assistance we can lay out
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this whole structure in ways that that that explain the underlying principles and make it clear how you might
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generalize these procedures to arbitrary cord and scale environments so thanks a
1:05:34
lot if you want to look at this PowerPoint madmusicalscience.com spatiality.pptx there's also videos
1:05:41
calculators and a lot of other stuff there so that's it
1:05:47
foreign

Why is it so difficult to start up an unique band - Safe vs unique

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